What Order?

[impulse]

At some point I was wondering if any of this actually existed outside of Bree's mind.

[ApotheosisAZ]

As far as we know, OpAPHID wasn't rogue until the time of the kidnapping in Vegas. Remember that OpAphid was the first person to say that they couldn't take Bree by force, but that she later said "The principles of the Hymn of One have failed us"?

By prefacing your statement with "As far as we know," you are pretty much saying "We don't know." I assume you can agree with that?

Lucy also seemed to be working with OpAphid (the exchange in "The Human Ransom"), and she was seen with Gemma, who we know was working for OpAphid ("Op isn't mad at me. At least I hope she isn't").

I really have a tough time arguing with this, as I initially brought that point forward at the time.

I'll have to think about that one.

Why would they have been? The Order wanted TAAG to return to the United States, as they'd set up the plot with Jules.

Well, it would have been a quicker way for the Order, if it exists, to lay their hands on Bree. The Jules plot was set up by the HoO, so your point here only supports my theory.

[Lurker]

As far as we know, OpAPHID wasn't rogue until the time of the kidnapping in Vegas. Remember that OpAphid was the first person to say that they couldn't take Bree by force, but that she later said "The principles of the Hymn of One have failed us"?

By prefacing your statement with "As far as we know," you are pretty much saying "We don't know." I assume you can agree with that?

I prefaced it in that way so that I wouldn't be speaking as though it were definitive. We both know how easily things get turned around in this series.

Anyway, Apo, if that really is a valid counterpoint, then we couldn't weigh the evidence and discuss the plausibility of any theories, right? So few things have actually been confirmed.

In any case, "As far as we know" isn't the most appropriate phrasing for what I said. "Based on all available information" would be more accurate.

I really have a tough time arguing with this, as I initially brought that point forward at the time.

I'll have to think about that one.

Alright, fair enough.

Well, it would have been a quicker way for the Order, if it exists, to lay their hands on Bree. The Jules plot was set up by the HoO, so your point here only supports my theory.

Not necessarily. In order for it to support your theory, we'd have to know that the Order as a whole didn't care whether Bree came willingly or not. So far we only know that OpAphid and some of her subordinates weren't concerned about it.

[RoseCrowley]

Possibly. However, Lucy has been portrayed as part of Bree's religion since she first appeared. She has always worn black.

Nope! I've uncovered the truth about this series! Fashion is more important than anything else!

In fact, I know what the ceremony is. It's another fashion party, with models showing off new clothing designs on the runway later.

Of course! How could we not see this before?! The Order wants Bree because people with high levels of ribozymes are great fashion designers! Chanel, Prada, Vera Wang! Everyone knows that they all have been found to be trait postive! I've got it!

LoL, totally agree

[ApotheosisAZ]

Not necessarily. In order for it to support your theory, we'd have to know that the Order as a whole didn't care whether Bree came willingly or not. So far we only know that OpAphid and some of her subordinates weren't concerned about it.

Not true. Theoretically, they could have blackmailed her after detaining TAAG at the border with threats of prosecuting Daniel for his various crimes, if the Order really exists in the Breeniverse.

Lucy also seemed to be working with OpAphid (the exchange in "The Human Ransom"), and she was seen with Gemma, who we know was working for OpAphid ("Op isn't mad at me. At least I hope she isn't").

Gave this some more thought, and I have a theory that covers it:

Hasn't Lucy's part been played by two different people? I propose there are actually two Helpers named Lucy who bear enough of a resemblance as to have been indistinguishable from one another.

One was working with Op, and is now gone; the other is the Lucy we see who works for the HoO.



There is no "the Order," only HoO.

[chershaytoute]

If the HoO is one big fashion party, Considdy...then being trait positive can only mean that...Bree is the onliest one among them that can see...within a special spectrum of COLOR. So far, most of these Onians only seem to see in BLACK and WHITE...heck, they're even Shades of Gray-challenged!!

Guard your children, folks! This puts a whole new spin on things!

[Mvidrine]

How do you explain Jonas's parents and the document they left behind critizising the order? It seems to me, that as far as I'm aware the conventional explination is the correct one. The Hoo is a front for the Order. The Order may recruit all of their members from the Hoo, the Order may be the same as the Order of Dendrah(in fact this seems very likely) But there is an upper group of people who have more complete knowledge of what's going on. OpAphid was clearly on the Order level. Now, did the order kidnap TAGG in Las Vegas or did the Hoo, I don't know. Also, are the watchers with the Order or the Hoo, I can't say for sure. But all of this shows two affliated but sometimes competeing groups

[giddeanx]

I don't know about this. HoO is the name of the religious front for the Order or mask if you will. As Bree stated.

Alex, a confirmed member of "the Order", even refers to the group as "the Order" in the Alex is... video as well as Apology Accepted?

The organizational chart on the whiteboard in the bunker is labeled "the Order". Supposedly written by members of the resistance who should be quite knowledgeable of it.

HoO = "the Order"

[ApotheosisAZ]

Mvidrine and giddeanx make excellent points.

However, they too confirm my theory. Mvidrine points out that Jonas' parents appear to have been members of the Resistance, both from the documents they left behind, and their disappearance.

I never said the Resistance doesn't exist; I said that the Order doesn't. The HoO have done such a good job fooling people about the existence of the Order that a resistance movement was formed against it.

Giddeanx points out that Bree said there is an Order. Bree tells lies. Giddeanx also makes a point to say that Alex is Order, and I must point out that Alex was last seen with HoO, and that is who she supposedly takes her instructions from.

[kellylen]

since when does bree tell lies?

[ApotheosisAZ]

since when does bree tell lies?

Probably since soon after she became capable of speech. She is known to have lied to Daniel about the fake ceremony.

She lied to Daniel about the fake ceremony. She probably wasn't fabricating her belief that the Order exists, though. She was relying on data she discovered in the bunker.

[Lurker]

Not true. Theoretically, they could have blackmailed her after detaining TAAG at the border with threats of prosecuting Daniel for his various crimes, if the Order really exists in the Breeniverse.

I wasn't talking about what they were capable of doing, but, rather, their view of the situation. We don't know that the Order as a whole is cool with that kind of thing.

As far as your suggestion goes, they could have just pointed guns at Daniel and Jonas down on the beach (or in Alex's house) and given Bree the choice to come with them right then or to let her friends die. Even more simple than retrieving Alex and waiting for the kids to decide to drive back to the United States.

Apparently even that was too much coercion for them, though, and they had to get her to decide she wanted to do it. In the Jules incident, Bree wasn't coerced. She was the aggressor.

Gave this some more thought, and I have a theory that covers it:

Hasn't Lucy's part been played by two different people? I propose there are actually two Helpers named Lucy who bear enough of a resemblance as to have been indistinguishable from one another.

One was working with Op, and is now gone; the other is the Lucy we see who works for the HoO.

I assume the grinning emoticon indicates that you're not serious?

[BrightSilence]

The just hymn of one theory doesn't seem to fit. There is definately someone pulling the strings and getting something out of this. I think we can all agree on that.

Does it really mather what we call those people, or that 'organisation'. Op Aphid, as mentioned before, had to be involved somehow, the fact that he's gone now doesn't mean he never existed. With many resources and people at her disposal Op Aphid could not just have been a HoO'ner gone mad.

Also the watchers don't seem to fit with the HoO. I'm not sure, but I think there's more to it than just the HoO, I can't imagine a cult having that much interest in ribozyme levels.

[ApotheosisAZ]

I assume the grinning emoticon indicates that you're not serious?

I'm serious Lurker, but it is a somewhat far-fetched fix for the dilemma you proposed for my theory.

And as you are well aware, most of the theories I write are crazy. This one is really crazy, but it hasn't been disproven yet, which is why I am still clinging to it.

[giddeanx]

Giddeanx points out that Bree said there is an Order. Bree tells lies. Giddeanx also makes a point to say that Alex is Order, and I must point out that Alex was last seen with HoO, and that is who she supposedly takes her instructions from.

Alex takes instructions from the Order.
Alex takes instructions from the Hymn of One.

She refers to the organization that she works for as "the Order". She is working for the Hymn of One.

"the Order" = Hymn of One

What are you trolling for anyway? Bored?