0172-"The Perfect Beach" [4/13/07]

[Lurker]

I offer my apology from both of us.

Don't you watch NCIS? "Never apologize. It's sign of weakness."

Can't say I do.

Well, he got the gun out of the glove compartment. Whatever he couldn't store in there ... I guess it might be a big glove compartment, though.

Apparently, it was under the passenger seat. So he could fill the whole glove compartment with bullets

I wonder if he actually had any extras, though, since it was an old gun laying around his house. I certainly hope it had more than one magazine.

In any case, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you're sending people to kill someone in that kind of scenario, you probably would give them guns.

Well, remember how the Watcher "reacted" to Jonas trying to hit him...didn't look like he'd actually have needed a gun to take him out.

Kill, though. I mean, if you had to choose between beating someone to death or just shooting them ...

I can't see this as being "just because." I mean, if you feel you've got to get rid of these people, then there's probably some consideration of acceptable losses.

How is it acceptable to lose up to 6 Men in Black to kill one shooter, if you could just strangle him in sleep?

Whoa, I never said that. Obviously I don't think they wanted to kill these guys to begin with, but if that's what they wanted and they felt like they had to do it gangland style, I'd just expect there to be the sense that they could lose someone and not be heartbroken.

Or, if you insist on shooting them at the beach, how is it acceptable to lose 6 MiB if you have support and they don't?

I'm confused by this. If the attack had happened on the beach, unless Bree's father were suddenly revealed to be Poseidon and he just walked up out of the sea like this were an episode of "Xena" ... they'd be okay, right?

Didn't you hear? OpAphid disappeared! </sarcasm>
I was referring to how all the stuff above about sending people to death for no reason was referring to OpAphid, while the people "visiting" them at the beach were most likely "just" The Order.

Oh. That. Yeah. Still having trouble swallowing that in terms of plot construction myself.

"Certain death"? Now that comment probably would bruise Lucy's ego. It was one guy with one gun. Not something to take lightly, no, but it's hardly certain death.

Well, Jonas may not be a trained shooter, but he'd have to be blind to not hit a target only a few meters in front of him.

Wouldn't the same be true, though, of the people there who probably are trained?

I guess it all depends on how tough the wooden posts are (and whether they screwed up the car if you hit one). They do look pretty sturdy, I admit.

I was actually thinking more about driving down the rock wall and dying a horrible crash death - I hadn't noticed the posts until I watched the video again after I posted.

The sloping land was pretty far from where they were parked. Without the posts in the way, I think running anyone down would have been easy.

Current video says Jonas got the gun right after the Watcher appeared at his front door.

I'd call that one a retcon. He never thought about keeping the gun close by? Even after they were chased in Vegas? Kidnapped?

And they probably didn't leave Jonas's house because they considered it safe - after all Daniel was kidnapped down in town, not from the house itself. It was only apparent that the actual house had been located when they got their visitor - after which Jonas immediately armed up and they left.

That still leaves them doing absolutely nothing, though, after Bree's dad died. So if they didn't do it even when they knew that had happened, I'd say if they had no idea what became of Bree, they probably wouldn't have take any of those extreme measures then either.

They're definitely feeling betrayed ("What she did was inexcusable and unforgivable."), and there's definitely psychological harm (turning Daniel into a full-blown alcoholic).

Yes, they are definitely feeling betrayed, and the pscyhological harm is certainly there. I'm still hoping to find out that she's prevented some worse harm that we don't yet know about, though, but it could go either way.

And if it was just about intimidating them, Alex's behavior wouldn't fit that either, so I think we can rule that out for now.

True that. But the fact that her behavior didn't make sense in that situation anyway, was what started this whole discussion - so it's not really a surprise.

I thought it made sense. She was sad and trying to explain herself with Daniel, then transitioned into a bit of anger because of Jonas and his bout with insanity (he was making it obvious that trying to explain anything was going to be useless, because he wouldn't stop screaming or waving the gun long enough), and then - if she did have any bitterness toward Bree - it could have come out as she was leaving.

This is quite different. Knowing where you put your head down every night? That's a litle more than general knowledge of existence. That's knowing where you are at your most vulnerable.

Yes. But they were not at home asleep in the video

At the moment I think it's as easy to believe that they were followed. Heck, if Alex was expecting their arrival right then, why did she even get in the SUV before they pulled up?

And you assume she'd get the idea to actually research?

My mistake.

Well, we don't have spring break as a binge drinking event over here, so I've never attended such a mega party...but from what I gathered from certain videos on the internet, the attendees don't quite look like military commandos or men in black...

I doubt they've never seen business suits before. And in any case, they can still go by way of different roads if they have to actually go through the town itself.

Why are you assuming she'd have to constantly move?

Bullets.

They never faced an assassination commando before, either.

Are we assuming they've arranged a plan for this that differs from their previous attempts at flight?

And those two people with a gun are of no help when they're seen from kilometers away.

The top of the slope isn't kilometers away. Even living in a country that uses the emperical system, I'd guess from the slope to the rock wall isn't more than a kilometer (if that).

This isn't Counter-Strike. Hitting a stationary target from a calm position isn't that easy already...and they're supposed to hit three seperate, moving targets over several hundred meters distance, most probably with simple handguns?

Well, if they run toward the rock wall and the steep hill as you've suggested they might, the solution would certainly present itself, no? That said, though, assuming the three of them all ran out into the open stretch and thought about zig-zagging as they ran (probably wouldn't), they might get away.

I still like the snipers you mentioned before, though. That would be infinitely more simple.

I think the analogy matches fine when you're dealing with a small time limit. The guys there to deal out death aren't going to give you a sporting chance to climb slopes.

Just because they probably wouldn't survive it doesn't change the fact that, theoretically, they'd have the possibility to do it.

Okay, sure, it's not impossible.

While your room doesn't give 'em that chance. (Not to mention that your room isn't open on the other three sides either, but hey - who's fussy?)

Well, the beach is only altogether open on one side. To make use of any of the other three, you'd have to put out more effort than the situation would comfortably allow for.

If they were in an armed robbery, and they knew they'd only have to hand over the camera to survive, I don't think they'd do anything else, either. But when they know they can either do nothing, and die for sure, or fight, and have at least a minimal chance to survive, they'd have to be totally, blindingly retarded not to fight with everything they've got.

I think you're still missing my meaning when I make reference to what they would be inspired to do. I mean that I think you're overestimating the will of unarmed persons to allow for them to fight armed persons and win.

No, no...you read the "and"s wrong. It's either (scream "how could you?!" and raise the fists) or (go insane and use the gun). The point being that the first one would be a rather weak attempt at fighting back, and would not have lead to aborting the plan to kill/take them, had such a plan existed.

I see. Yes, I misread that.

I obviously do not agree that anything else wouldn't have made sense (I did explain how they could have just aborted their killing plan, after all) ...

But, remember, that wouldn't make sense because of all the 99% flawless methods (poison, bomb, snipers, etc.).

... but, what's more important is, that, even assuming that just taking Alex was the original and executed plan, that doesn't explain her weird mood-change mid situation, whether or not she's forced to do that or acts out of free will, just pretending to be forced, and why Alex endangered BD&J instead of just quietly leaving?

Well, as I said above, I think you can explain Alex's mood transition fairly easily. As for whether she endangered them, we're still waiting to hear what the circumstances were, aren't we?

That never made sense either since she had his car.

Maybe the plot hole page isn't big enough yet.
Although I'm kind of afraid of how big it'd grow if we two re-watched all episodes...

Are you kidding? They'd probably delete the page for eating up too much of the server if we were let loose to expand it to its full extent. There's even narrative inconsistencies to be found in the YT comments (I mention several in the second post of that thread; and, yes, I was "slightly" more optimistic about consistency at the time).

First of all, there was no need for Alex to tell the Order where the beach was. They have used tracking devices before, and there could be one on the car, or even possibly implanted in Bree. This is not an issue at all.

This is not an issue, right, because once the Creators say the Order had bugged them all along, they're gonna open plot holes as large as Russia. I don't think it's a good idea to explain their sudden appearance with a tracking device, simply because it'd lead to dozens of "Why didn't they do this when..." questions.

Order doesn't watch Bree's videos. Need I say more? You can't open plot holes any bigger than that.

Not to mention Alex's "I had no choice" doesn't fit this theory.

Actually, she was saying "I don't have a choice." I think that's a potentially significant difference. "Had" would imply she called them. "Have" would imply some future event, in which case she may have only meant that she knew they could come for her.

P.S.: Lurker and me:

Well, I think - and this will probably come as a relief to everyone else, especially Languorous Lass - we've probably discussed this as far as currently known information will allow. I think we can agree that if they absolutely, positively wanted to kill the kids, then - realistically speaking (yes, I'm inserting real world logic into this; I know that's not the safest path to tread, but it's the only one I can walk) - they would have (again, going back to snipers at the beach or them living in Alex's house and the possibility for poison, arson, etc.).

Personally, if there's a standard less than "realistically speaking" or "most logically" that we should be approaching this by (some of your comments seem to suggest you feel this might be the case), then I'm ready to let it end anyway. I can't discuss things in terms of "Well, yeah, that would have made the most sense, but then the show would have ended."

I also remain naively optimistic that an explanation for what happened with Alex will come along that makes perfect sense and establishes that she meant no betrayal whatsoever. But only time will tell. Should you prove correct about her being a traitor (in the way I've been saying it), I'll be sure to declare that you were right at that time (but I'm hoping to be able to say you were wrong).

[Languorous Lass]

Me and both of you:

Pfft. You said you'd reply back on page 17, before Lurker and me had even started...it's not my fault you don't want to play...

I was about to say "You two didn't leave anything left for me to add," but that's untrue. Your posts have been so long and intimidating that I haven't even had the nerve to read them. (And this is from someone who reviews and writes regulations for a living!)

[kwicherbichen]

The End.

Wasn't that a wonderful story, children?

[Languorous Lass]

Current video says Jonas got the gun right after the Watcher appeared at his front door.

I'd call that one a retcon. He never thought about keeping the gun close by? Even after they were chased in Vegas? Kidnapped?

I absolutely cannot believe I'm jumping into this marathon argument, but . . .

Lurker, I think you've got the time frame wrong. Remember, the Watcher showed up at Jonas's door in Watch This!, long before the trip to Vegas. The TAAG hit the road right after that, heading to the "cabin" in the woods. So presumably it's been in his car the whole time.

And they probably didn't leave Jonas's house because they considered it safe - after all Daniel was kidnapped down in town, not from the house itself. It was only apparent that the actual house had been located when they got their visitor - after which Jonas immediately armed up and they left.

That still leaves them doing absolutely nothing, though, after Bree's dad died. So if they didn't do it even when they knew that had happened, I'd say if they had no idea what became of Bree, they probably wouldn't have take any of those extreme measures then either.

Not quite sure what this sentence says, but I think it's believable that TAAG didn't arm themselves after Bree's dad was killed, because at that point there had been no indication that anyone from the Order was interested in harming Bree herself.

Maybe the plot hole page isn't big enough yet.
Although I'm kind of afraid of how big it'd grow if we two re-watched all episodes...

Are you kidding? They'd probably delete the page for eating up too much of the server if we were let loose to expand it to its full extent. There's even narrative inconsistencies to be found in the YT comments (I mention several in the second post of that thread; and, yes, I was "slightly" more optimistic about consistency at the time).

It scares me to say this, but . . . I would actually love to see you two go to work on all of the inconsistencies.

But then I'm a detail-obsessed geeknerd.

[Lurker]

I absolutely cannot believe I'm jumping into this marathon argument, but . . .

Turn back! Turn back!!

Lurker, I think you've got the time frame wrong. ... So presumably it's been in his car the whole time.

That's my point entirely. They got chased in Vegas and then kidnapped, and instead of keeping it with him, he left it in the car?

Not quite sure what this sentence says, but I think it's believable that TAAG didn't arm themselves after Bree's dad was killed, because at that point there had been no indication that anyone from the Order was interested in harming Bree herself.

But there was more than sufficient indication that they were interested in harming those around Bree. I was expecting Jonas to get a gun from that point forward, and remained confused as to why he never had one.

It scares me to say this, but . . . I would actually love to see you two go to work on all of the inconsistencies.

I don't even think I want to see us do that.

[Renegade]

EDIT: Damnit! Void, because people re-started posting during my typing.

So...it's on again, I assume. Gotta go to bed, will reply in length tomorrow.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Original Post:


Epilogue

@Lurker: While, as you probably know, I don't agree with you on several points, and would have enough to say for another long, long post, I do agree this discussion is basically dead - especially since, given your latest replies, we'd be back at discussing the realism of her mood change.

As kwicherbichen subtlely suggests, maybe should end it here. We should definitely do that again some time, though.

Unless, of course, you want me to continue. (Although I don't think we'd ever agree...and, even if an episode decides which opinion is "correct", the "losing" party will probably find a hundred reasons why the solution makes no sense at all.)

@Lass: So, there was no video, you were here, but didn't read our posts?
I think we should feel insulted, Lurker.


Nah, nah, just kidding. I just wondered why you never "called back"

[Languorous Lass]

I absolutely cannot believe I'm jumping into this marathon argument, but . . .

Turn back! Turn back!!

(sob) Too late!!! (choke) I've been . . . lured in to your twisted, sick SCHEMES!!!!

Lurker, I think you've got the time frame wrong. ... So presumably it's been in his car the whole time.

That's my point entirely. They got chased in Vegas and then kidnapped, and instead of keeping it with him, he left it in the car?

You're complaining because he didn't carry his gun with him at the beach? You kidding me?

First of all, we've been commenting off and on about how D and J don't seem to take the situation seriously enough. So it's entirely consistent with what we've been shown about Jonas that he wouldn't Pack Heat at every moment of the day. He's 19 years old and in Mexico during spring break.

Second of all, Jonas was with his aunt, who was a member of the Order. He'd just had a huge heart-to-heart with her in Hug It Out , and had decided to trust her again. Maybe it was stupid, but again I think it makes sense in terms of the character: this was someone who was important to him when he was a little kid. People like that have a tendency to be able to get past the rational defenses of adults -- at least adults who aren't trained spies or assassins. Jonas is a lonely guy, and he wants to be able to trust in his Auntie Alex. Hence when they have their Big Discussion On the Beach, he decides to let his guard down. Again, maybe stupid, but definitely understandable.

It scares me to say this, but . . . I would actually love to see you two go to work on all of the inconsistencies.

I don't even think I want to see us do that.

You have limits?

[Lurker]

You're complaining because he didn't carry his gun with him at the beach? You kidding me?

Nope. At least after getting chased in Vegas he should have been on high alert and had the thing close at hand.

First of all, we've been commenting off and on about how D and J don't seem to take the situation seriously enough. So it's entirely consistent with what we've been shown about Jonas that he wouldn't Pack Heat at every moment of the day. He's 19 years old and in Mexico during spring break.

I'm not so sure, though, that being consistently illogical about the whole thing is better than having one sensible moment that is - by necessity - inconsistent. Though drunk Jonas with a gun is probably not a best case scenario either.

It scares me to say this, but . . . I would actually love to see you two go to work on all of the inconsistencies.

I don't even think I want to see us do that.

You have limits?

Maybe. Hopefully.

[Ziola]

Lurker, I think you've got the time frame wrong. Remember, the Watcher showed up at Jonas's door in Watch This!, long before the trip to Vegas. The TAAG hit the road right after that, heading to the "cabin" in the woods. So presumably it's been in his car the whole time.

My question is how did Daniel not find it when he was searching the car and found the package left by Tachyon?

edited for being quote challenged.

[Lurker]

My question is how did Daniel not find it when he was searching the car and found the package left by Tachyon?

Another good continuity question. I guess it's possible that Daniel came across her package first, but one would think he'd have kept looking to see if there was anything else she'd left.

[alysaface]

jonas + a gun = yum.

i'm about a week late, haha. laptops dying FTL!

[Lurker]

Damnit! Void, because people re-started posting during my typing.

So...it's on again, I assume. Gotta go to bed, will reply in length tomorrow.

Well, with me at least, it's up to you.

Epilogue

@Lurker: While, as you probably know, I don't agree with you on several points, and would have enough to say for another long, long post, I do agree this discussion is basically dead - especially since, given your latest replies, we'd be back at discussing the realism of her mood change.

As kwicherbichen subtlely suggests, maybe should end it here. We should definitely do that again some time, though.

That's okay with me. It was fun.

... even if an episode decides which opinion is "correct", the "losing" party will probably find a hundred reasons why the solution makes no sense at all.

Only if you're the winner!

[Renegade]

Only if you're the winner!

Hehehe, nice one.


Okay, given that there's another video by now, and we've all stated our opinions over and over again, I'm not gonna post in length. As fun as it is, this can't go on forever...especially not since, with all the retcons and new characters, we're in for a whole lot of exciting new plot holes and contradictions...

[nowherepixie]

Haha, I'm enjoying the banter

[Kanazaka]

Nice surprise ending for this video . Kudos to the Creators for the great camerawork. And I'm glad the Order has finally stopped chasing Bree. However, Bree and her friends can't forget about the Order, because they're after a new girl.
Dun-dun-DUN !