0172-"The Perfect Beach" [4/13/07]

[Wisi Girl]

Erm, I suppose that was amusing.....I just thought it was a bit annoying. I can't believe you quoted all of that just to make one simple comment. Can't believe it.....


Uh, Creators? When fans start doing this in the threads....That means it is time for a new video, okay?

[Renegade]

I realize that's from your discussion with mellie, but I do think it warrants mentioning that the car wasn't cranked up and they were udoubtedly outgunned. Trying to make a break for it in the car seems like a good way to get one or all of them killed. And wouldn't that make Alex even more selfish?

Yet, not all getting killed would mean the plan to kill them all would have failed, proving the ambush was no "perfect opportunity" - not to mention that "not all getting killed" is better than "all getting killed". A chance is better than no chance.
And actually, that'd be independent from Alex selfishness...they'd all want to live.

If it did come to waiting it out while they shot at each other from behind cars, who has more bullets?

We don't know how many bullets Jonas has...he's a rich a guy...
More importantly though, nobody says they have to constantly shoot back, western style. As long as they kill whoever's trying to make a leap, they're good.

We're using different assumptions then. I'm assuming it would never come to close combat. If you've got a gun, and you're there to kill them, you aren't going to let them get close.

But you may have to get close, if they won't let you shoot them

Well, I'm assuming shit like that wouldn't happen. Maybe that's too presumptuous of me, but I think it's fair.

It's a worst case scenario - but if we're assuming eight hostiles (2 in the first car, 5 in the second one, Alex), and 17 bullets in the magazine (smallest mag for a standard Glock 17), then it's entirely within the realm of possibilities to shoot each of them twice. Especially if they don't expect it. It's questionable how probable it is, but after all, we're only working on assumptions here anyway - have you seen a gun on any of the shown Men in Black?

Well, actually, she iced them as a security measure on the off chance that they had something to do with it. She didn't actually have anything on them.

But there was a certain reason - she may have acted extreme for the scale of the reason, but there was a reason nonetheless. She did not kill them just because. So even if that was OpAphid (which it most likely wasn't), there is no indication they'd just send their people into certain death until Jonas has no bullets left...

Even with Jonas watching them it wouldn't matter as long as they were okay with replacing one of the windows in their car or van. And since he wasn't sitting in his car yet, I'd expect the gun would be on the ground on the side of the vehicle facing them. That seems pretty cozy.

I was actually thinking in the direction of "he will see when they pull out the gun and duck and cover, then fire back". And since Bree and Daniel were close as well (Jonas was being filmed, after all), they would have been close to the dropped gun as well, had the Order shot him.

Oh, if they started running, I'd just go Grand Theft Auto on them. Who needs to get out of the car? Unless they're concerned with damaging their vehicles.

Can't. BD&J's car is in the way, and you'd set yourself up for certain death if you decide to keep driving when they reach the slopy path.

And I hope you meant GTA II...not this newer crap.

It wasn't "they're in a small town in Mexico," though, at all. It was "they're in a small town in Mexico, living in a house owned by Alex - heyyy, don't we know her? Shall we go bug it?"

BD&J didn't seem to know where they are - just some beach Alex knew. Most likely, the driver got directions from her on the way. So even if they bugged the house (which is more OpAphid than Order style anyway), all they'd know is that they're going "swimming at some beach".

How about when Bree stole one of Jonas' cars - possibly with no intention of ever returning - so that she could go meet up with her dad? If Daniel and Jonas hadn't followed her, her dad would have been dead, she'd have been in Lucy's custody (probably because she would have been too scared to refuse the Order, and she didn't know about the free will thing then), and the Order would have been free to trace the car to Jonas and Daniel (whom they might off as payback). That's pretty selfish, dude.

Taking the car was, yes - but the fact stands in this story as well: She did not directly, immediately, endanger Daniel and Jonas. Yes, had she failed (which she probably would have), the Order might have traced the car back to Jonas - but by then, Daniel and Jonas would already have been long gone or on high alert and armed to their teeth. While Alex just put them right in front of the Order with no preparation or warning.

In any case, when I said "arguably" I was referring to the fact that she's never decided to go out in the middle of nowhere alone and just give herself up for the sake of her friends (which is exactly what you said Alex should have done).

Well, if she just went out and gave up, everything they've been through would be for naught? And just because Bree is selfish as well doesn't change the fact that, if Alex planned this pick up to happen as it did, she is way more selfish than Bree. Because Bree is just being a bitch, while Alex willfully put the entire group in danger.

You seem to only consider something betrayal if harm resulted out of it...that's a logic like "my underling tried to kill me, but he missed...so it's fine".

That's not what I'm saying at all. There was no attempt at harm here, so I don't call it a betrayal.

There was no attempt shown to alter their current physical state for the worse. But that doesn't change the fact that she apparently betrayed their trust, called the Order, and served them to the Order on a silver plate. Just because the Order didn't want them this time, BD&J didn't get served any less. Betrayal is not limited to physical harm. And both Daniel's and Jonas's reaction show quite clearly that psychological harm was done.

I'm just equating the attempt with the realization in this case because I'm assuming that BD&J would have been fucked if the Order wanted them dead.

So unless somebody did the worst to you, it's not that bad? It's like saying "I didn't rob you - I only took the money from your purse, your bank account is still full!".

Until we know why she left with them, I think it does. We don't know that she was being taken back to the office for a party.

It does not. No matter why she called the Order, she apparently still did (or at least was aware they were going to come, and didn't say anything).

When have they ever been safe? They've been posting videos publically. No retcon can change that the religious part of the Order has known about this since October (at the least; they probably knew even before then, considering that Bree's parents knew she'd snuck out). And, for that matter, how can the Order use their contacts to stifle media coverage of videos they don't know exist?

One can't have it both ways here. Either the media's all over this thing and the Order knows because of that, or the Order already knew and is keeping a lid on it.

...
Just because I know you exist doesn't automatically mean I know where you are, right?
I could not just buy a plane ticket and come shoot you right now. Simply because, even though you seem to exist and talk to me over the web, I have no idea from where your postings come. So even though I could hack the forum software to make your posts disappear, you would still be safe from me.
And just as safe were Bree, Daniel and Jonas, every time the Order didn't know where exactly the location was from where they're posting. Daniel's friend is an example. Jonas's house, until it was located. Jonas's cabin should still be safe, if Alex doesn't know where it is. And for exactly that reason, what Alex did put them in danger. She turned "they are probably at Alex's house when we arrive" into "they are at Alex's Love Beach right now". Generally knowledge of existence vs. definite information where they are.

Yeah, but they don't have to all be sent even in the same hour, much less by the same roads. If I were to see four or five black vehicles over the course of a few hours and in various parts of town, I bet it wouldn't stand out to me.

Small towns have this "everybody knows everyone" effect. Even if it isn't actually true, you can assume people would notice if Men in Black with dark limos started to show up all over the town.

The ocean would be choosing death. Bree can't swim forever.

She doesn't have to swim forever. Just enough to escape.

They'd technically have 360° to run in a 12x12 room with a glass cieling too, but that doesn't mean it's going to help. When you're running from people who are shooting, you don't want to have to start climbing walls and struggling up slopes.

Hence why they would switch directions
And your analogy doesn't match. 'cause in a room with a ceiling you couldn't climb over the walls. You can climb over the rock wall. It'd just take more time then running down the beach.

The water is far away from said hill. That image is from early in the video when they're walking down the slope. They'd have to run a long way down the beach in that direction to go around anything that would provide them cover - and bullets are faster than people.

Bullets usually don't fly in zigzag, though.

I hadn't seen that, but you're right. Maybe we weren't supposed to notice.

That's possibly even the location of "Alex's House" - just showing the beach behind the hills in other videos...

Totally. You only need room to spread when you're expecting return fire.

No spreading means no coverage of the area. So if they are coming in one line from the front, and in a wide line from the right, they can just go left.

Thank you for providing an even more simple solution.

Except when they're laying down on towels. Or stationary on rocks while they look into the shallows.

Aren't you supposed to be making a case for how they could have been trying to kill them? This is a move in the opposite direction.

It's in line with what I said before about how cozy it was that they had the kids living in Alex's place.

I have never said the were unkillable at the beach - at least I didn't intend to. I am merely making a case that killing them at the Beach was not a "perfect opportunity" - simply because there are way too many ways to escape, alone or in group, way too many variables, a gun, all of a sudden, and, due to the fact that they would have been aware of the attempt on their live, a definite chance of resistance.

The Human Ransom would have been a perfect opportunity, from the Order's point of view. They didn't know about Tachyon and Brother, so all they saw was Daniel, Jonas and Bree, surrounded by them, protected from view, with no way to escape (before they entered the elevator, the Order had more or less surrounded them, and they didn't expect them to have a way to get off the roof).
They could have just shot them with silencers, and it would have been over. Get rid of the bodies, get another girl, let the police handle inquiries about missing persons. Quick, simple, perfect. But alas, they weren't allowed to touch Bree.

Would we be expecting them to fight for their lives or make an appeal to pathos?

To fight...but I'm not quite sure how what you asked related to what I said...

Again, this is true. But just because the Order showed up (possibly because Alex told them where she'd be) doesn't make her one.

Just showing up doesn't.
Showing up because Alex told them where she'd be does.

Even if she told them exactly where to find her (which we don't know yet), I still disagree for reasons we've gone over.

And I'm still convinced of my position...maybe agreeing to disagree is our only chance here as well.

According to your suggestion for reasoning that it was betrayal (in the way I've been using the term), she would have not only been in on the plan to kill them, but could have been the one to abort it beside the car with the "They're here for me" statement. So, again, why couldn't they have used an infinitely more simple method? Poison? Fire? Bomb? Your snipers?

Again, I was thinking under the assumption they were still not allowed to do it - but if you're asking for the time after they were allowed: Because it'd end the series. It's as simple as that. No logic, no reason, nothing. Killing them while they're asleep at Alex's house would be perfect to safely execute them, but a horrible, sudden ending for the series. So the Creators didn't write it that way. That's the sole reason. (This is the part where we're back at it not making sense . )

Sooo ... Bree, Daniel and Jonas have betrayed each other countless times with video uploads.

Nope. Because, not only were they all aware of each other posting videos, but they even agreed on camera to keep posting videos, to make sure there was a record of what happened to them.

But, again, if they're keeping this stuff secret, then how did they not already know where to find BD&J?

Same as above - general knowledge of existence or a broad idea of where they are is not enough.
Think of Lose Something?. Oppy did know the general area where Jonas's house is. But she needed us to find the specific location before she could take action.

Ouch. Well, I appreciate the effort.

Start time: 00:52 CEST
End of raw draft: 02:22 CEST
End of improved draft: 02:41 CEST
...and since I have to go to bed now, that shall be my submission.



/me sends love to kwicherbichen

[Bolts]

Ahaha, holy shit XD

[robtomorrow]

Well,... I guess that post just about says it all,...if not, I don't think I want to see the post that does!

[Languorous Lass]

As I scrolled down . . . and down . . . and down, I just started whimpering.

Mercy, you two. Mercy.

[robtomorrow]

Erm, I suppose that was amusing.....I just thought it was a bit annoying. I can't believe you quoted all of that just to make one simple comment. Can't believe it.....

Uh, Creators? When fans start doing this in the threads....That means it is time for a new video, okay?

Wisi,
I've said it before and I'll say it again, you need to go out and find yourself a sense of humor. We are here to have fun remember?

Sorry, OT, I know, please don't jump all over me.

[Ziola]

*goes to grab another glass of wine*

[Languorous Lass]

*follows Zi to get a kiss and a glass of sparkling cider*

[Ziola]

[Languorous Lass]

Honey, I am soooo looking forward to that Nakey East Coast Convention . . .

Er . . . back on topic . . . how 'bout that gun Jonas had, eh?

[Lurker]

As I scrolled down . . . and down . . . and down, I just started whimpering.

Mercy, you two. Mercy.

I offer my apology from both of us.

Kwicherbichen, I just almost died laughing. I scroll through this huge long quote to see "This is why we love Lurker."

That was pretty funny. I laughed too, actually.

Yet, not all getting killed would mean the plan to kill them all would have failed, proving the ambush was no "perfect opportunity" - not to mention that "not all getting killed" is better than "all getting killed". A chance is better than no chance.
And actually, that'd be independent from Alex selfishness...they'd all want to live.

I was making that point independently of a scenario in which Lucy and her pals were trying to kill the group. There I thought the matter was only about the Order being intent on taking Alex - in which case I was suggesting that her deciding not to go with them and BD&J trying to crank up the vehicle and take off would possibly get them all killed.

We don't know how many bullets Jonas has...he's a rich a guy...

Well, he got the gun out of the glove compartment. Whatever he couldn't store in there ... I guess it might be a big glove compartment, though.

It's questionable how probable it is, but after all, we're only working on assumptions here anyway - have you seen a gun on any of the shown Men in Black?

"The Unthinkable Happened"? In any case, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you're sending people to kill someone in that kind of scenario, you probably would give them guns.

But there was a certain reason - she may have acted extreme for the scale of the reason, but there was a reason nonetheless. She did not kill them just because.

I can't see this as being "just because." I mean, if you feel you've got to get rid of these people, then there's probably some consideration of acceptable losses.

So even if that was OpAphid (which it most likely wasn't) ...

What?

... there is no indication they'd just send their people into certain death until Jonas has no bullets left...

"Certain death"? Now that comment probably would bruise Lucy's ego. It was one guy with one gun. Not something to take lightly, no, but it's hardly certain death.

I was actually thinking in the direction of "he will see when they pull out the gun and duck and cover, then fire back". And since Bree and Daniel were close as well (Jonas was being filmed, after all), they would have been close to the dropped gun as well, had the Order shot him.

I was thinking the dark windows would have obscured any small gestures (unlike the sweeping ones Jonas was making). And since he was on the side of the SUV with them, I was thinking that would make matters difficult for B&D to pick up his slack.

Oh, if they started running, I'd just go Grand Theft Auto on them. Who needs to get out of the car? Unless they're concerned with damaging their vehicles.

Can't. BD&J's car is in the way, and you'd set yourself up for certain death if you decide to keep driving when they reach the slopy path.

I guess it all depends on how tough the wooden posts are (and whether they screwed up the car if you hit one). They do look pretty sturdy, I admit.

It wasn't "they're in a small town in Mexico," though, at all. It was "they're in a small town in Mexico, living in a house owned by Alex - heyyy, don't we know her? Shall we go bug it?"

BD&J didn't seem to know where they are - just some beach Alex knew. Most likely, the driver got directions from her on the way. So even if they bugged the house (which is more OpAphid than Order style anyway), all they'd know is that they're going "swimming at some beach".

Fair enough.

Yes, had she failed (which she probably would have), the Order might have traced the car back to Jonas - but by then, Daniel and Jonas would already have been long gone or on high alert and armed to their teeth. While Alex just put them right in front of the Order with no preparation or warning.

Oh, now that's giving them way too much credit. They wouldn't have even known what happened to Bree.

And considering how long it took them to leave Jonas' place or get a gun (even after they saw Bree's dad get wasted and even after Daniel got kidnapped), I think that's a little much to expect of them.

Well, if she just went out and gave up, everything they've been through would be for naught? And just because Bree is selfish as well doesn't change the fact that, if Alex planned this pick up to happen as it did, she is way more selfish than Bree. Because Bree is just being a bitch, while Alex willfully put the entire group in danger.

Well, the jury's still out on whether she willfully put them in danger (hopefully we'll find out soon), but, yes, if that were the case, that would be a bit worse than Bree's own actions.

There was no attempt shown to alter their current physical state for the worse. But that doesn't change the fact that she apparently betrayed their trust, called the Order, and served them to the Order on a silver plate. Just because the Order didn't want them this time, BD&J didn't get served any less.

I still don't think this use of wording fits what happened. To suggest that they were served to Lucy puts them at the center of this, and based on what we saw in the video (and what could have been done to them, either at the beach or Alex's place or somewhere else), this particular occasion wasn't about them.

Betrayal is not limited to physical harm. And both Daniel's and Jonas's reaction show quite clearly that psychological harm was done.

I think it might be a bit of a stretch to call it that ... but we'll see.

I'm just equating the attempt with the realization in this case because I'm assuming that BD&J would have been fucked if the Order wanted them dead.

So unless somebody did the worst to you, it's not that bad? It's like saying "I didn't rob you - I only took the money from your purse, your bank account is still full!".

I'd like to point out that we still don't know why this happened. For reasons we've discussed at length, I'd say it clearly had nothing to do with wanting to harm BD&J, and it doesn't appear to have just been about Alex getting a ride. There's something going on there we don't know yet.

And if it was just about intimidating them, Alex's behavior wouldn't fit that either, so I think we can rule that out for now.

...
Just because I know you exist doesn't automatically mean I know where you are, right?

...

And just as safe were Bree, Daniel and Jonas, every time the Order didn't know where exactly the location was from where they're posting. Daniel's friend is an example. Jonas's house, until it was located. Jonas's cabin should still be safe, if Alex doesn't know where it is. And for exactly that reason, what Alex did put them in danger. She turned "they are probably at Alex's house when we arrive" into "they are at Alex's Love Beach right now". Generally knowledge of existence vs. definite information where they are.

This is quite different. Knowing where you put your head down every night? That's a litle more than general knowledge of existence. That's knowing where you are at your most vulnerable.

By the way, I doubt the cabin's safe. A quick search of property tax records and any of us could probably find it.

Small towns have this "everybody knows everyone" effect. Even if it isn't actually true, you can assume people would notice if Men in Black with dark limos started to show up all over the town.

We don't know that it's a small town to begin with (in "Spanglish," Bree suggested that the "sleepy quiet little town" persona had long since vanished) - and, again, if the location is outside the city, why send a parade down the middle of the street?

Besides, it sounds like these guys are used to tourists. Especially in the spring.

The ocean would be choosing death. Bree can't swim forever.

She doesn't have to swim forever. Just enough to escape.

Where to? While she's swimming parallel to the beach, the guys with guns can walk along the shore and wait for her to either drown, for themselves to get lucky with a bullet, or for her to give up and come let it end.

They'd technically have 360° to run in a 12x12 room with a glass cieling too, but that doesn't mean it's going to help. When you're running from people who are shooting, you don't want to have to start climbing walls and struggling up slopes.

Hence why they would switch directions

How would that help? One or two people with a gun for each person you needed to get. And why are we assuming that they would split up in the first place? They never have before.

And your analogy doesn't match. 'cause in a room with a ceiling you couldn't climb over the walls. You can climb over the rock wall. It'd just take more time then running down the beach.

I think the analogy matches fine when you're dealing with a small time limit. The guys there to deal out death aren't going to give you a sporting chance to climb slopes.

The water is far away from said hill. That image is from early in the video when they're walking down the slope. They'd have to run a long way down the beach in that direction to go around anything that would provide them cover - and bullets are faster than people.

Bullets usually don't fly in zigzag, though.

Yes, but you wouldn't stand there doing nothing long enough for the people you're trying to assassinate to run a quarter of a mile down the beach and get over a rock wall. You'd be shooting while they were running.

I have never said the were unkillable at the beach - at least I didn't intend to. I am merely making a case that killing them at the Beach was not a "perfect opportunity" - simply because there are way too many ways to escape, alone or in group, way too many variables, a gun, all of a sudden, and, due to the fact that they would have been aware of the attempt on their live, a definite chance of resistance.

Well, I still can't see any possible escape but one, and that's not going to help much in outrunning objects that move faster than sound.

Also - and I mean this in the nicest possible way - I really think you overestimate the will to resist of unarmed people against armed people (particularly when it comes to an open space).

Would we be expecting them to fight for their lives or make an appeal to pathos?

To fight...but I'm not quite sure how what you asked related to what I said...

Well, you seemed to suggest they could either face "How could you?!"s or raised fists/a possible gun. It seems to me like only one of those would be actually fighting.

Even if she told them exactly where to find her (which we don't know yet), I still disagree for reasons we've gone over.

And I'm still convinced of my position...maybe agreeing to disagree is our only chance here as well.

Possibly so.

According to your suggestion for reasoning that it was betrayal (in the way I've been using the term), she would have not only been in on the plan to kill them, but could have been the one to abort it beside the car with the "They're here for me" statement. So, again, why couldn't they have used an infinitely more simple method? Poison? Fire? Bomb? Your snipers?

Again, I was thinking under the assumption they were still not allowed to do it - but if you're asking for the time after they were allowed: Because it'd end the series. It's as simple as that. No logic, no reason, nothing. Killing them while they're asleep at Alex's house would be perfect to safely execute them, but a horrible, sudden ending for the series. So the Creators didn't write it that way. That's the sole reason. (This is the part where we're back at it not making sense . )

You're right, that wouldn't make sense. So, in the interest of giving the Creators the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to assume what I believe is the only thing that makes sense given what went down: That they had no intention of harming BD&J and just wanted to take Alex. Anything else just doesn't make sense, as you also seem to agree (correct me if I'm wrong).

Sooo ... Bree, Daniel and Jonas have betrayed each other countless times with video uploads.

Nope. Because, not only were they all aware of each other posting videos, but they even agreed on camera to keep posting videos, to make sure there was a record of what happened to them.

True. Though it hardly seems to me like they can start blaming Alex for giving away their location when they've been making these public videos.

But, again, if they're keeping this stuff secret, then how did they not already know where to find BD&J?

Same as above - general knowledge of existence or a broad idea of where they are is not enough.

The address where your pillow lay is pretty darn specific, dude.

Think of Lose Something?. Oppy did know the general area where Jonas's house is. But she needed us to find the specific location before she could take action.

That never made sense either since she had his car.

Ouch. Well, I appreciate the effort.

Start time: 00:52 CEST
End of raw draft: 02:22 CEST
End of improved draft: 02:41 CEST
...and since I have to go to bed now, that shall be my submission.

Wow. Yeah, you need the rest. It doesn't take me as long, so I kind of feel bad.

[longlostposter]

Ok, I'm going to get involved in this now, but without quotes.

First of all, there was no need for Alex to tell the Order where the beach was. They have used tracking devices before, and there could be one on the car, or even possibly implanted in Bree. This is not an issue at all.

Secondly, this was the perfect opportunity to kill BDJ, if the Order wanted to do so. The area was secluded, there was no one around to hear gunshots, and if they tried to drive away, the Order would simply shoot one of their tires out, and disable the vehicle.

I am thinking that what the Order wants from BDJ has more to do with mind-control, or obtaining information through interrogations. How do we know the interrogator got everything he wanted from them when the Order had them, since they escaped? They may have not been done with them.

OK, done for now.

[Balmung]

Geez, this thread is a lot more like a rope!

i'm going to untangle it tomorrow lol

[longlostposter]

Geez, this thread is a lot more like a rope!

i'm going to untangle it tomorrow lol

LMAO

[rayne100]

Hey guys,
Nothing really important to add here, but something I noticed.
Anyone notice how when Bree's dad was killed daniel was the first to react and Jonas was like "I feel so bad that I hesitated"?

Did you catch the fact that this time, Jonas was the first to react and infact positioned himself between bree and the order in order to help her get away. This time, it was Daniel that hesitated.

Just saying, it was kind of subtle that Jonas was able to redeem himself so to speak....

Jess