0172-"The Perfect Beach" [4/13/07]

[Languorous Lass]

I'd rather have a Bree/Misty/Madison sandwich

Nah. Maddison looks about 12. Give me Tachyon and Alex.

Well 12 would be perfect, since I'm 13. But I'll take Tachyon and Alex. tooo

Oh, you are not! Seriously?

Sheesh, I wish I could have been so cool about being queer when I was 13.

[ericski]

seems like if alex had set them up, even if she could only give an estimation of when they would be there, they stayed long enough for lucy et al to have arranged a better ambush at this location. w/o going into the terrain as other more comprehensive posters have done, where they were approached seems less desirable.

one other point, minor as it is, i noticed that jonas placed his towel between db and alex, more intent apparently on keeping them separate than being close to (the presumed) bree.

[EternalGoddess]

The reason why I don't think it was a set up is based on the fact that the order made no attempt in taking Bree. Alex said that they were their for her and clearly they were considering that once she got in the car they left. I do think that Alex is doing a trade off for Jonas's parents, but I think that Bree and them are going to have to try and save Alex now. Tachyon might even make a re-apperance for this event.

[Languorous Lass]

I do think that Alex is doing a trade off for Jonas's parents

What makes you think that? Is there any evidence in the vids that would lead to that conclusion?

Tachyon might even make a re-apperance for this event.

I'm really getting frustrated with people ignoring what the Creators have said. "[T]here will be no more LG15 videos featuring OpAphid, Tachyon, or Brother." How much clearer can that statement be?

Those three characters were created by Glenn Rubenstein. Glenn and the Creators "have both decided to part ways." Therefore, the Creators are no longer legally permitted to use Glenn's characters.

[HenrySugar]

I don't think the Creators comments are being ignored as much as they're not being seen. Not all fans read that one little corner of the forums. In fact, I'm sure there's a much higher percentage of fans who don't know about this than there are those who do.
I hate that it's frustrating you, but if we don't know, then we don't know.

[Lurker]

[*]"I don't have a choice" meaning the situation at hand makes no sense...they are right at the car, and they have a gun. It's not like their capturing by the Order is inevitable.

I realize that's from your discussion with mellie, but I do think it warrants mentioning that the car wasn't cranked up and they were udoubtedly outgunned. Trying to make a break for it in the car seems like a good way to get one or all of them killed. And wouldn't that make Alex even more selfish?

I was playing with the fact that it would mean her reaction was out of anger, like I said, rather than out of bitterness, like you said. Anger resulting from bitterness, but anger nonetheless.

That's what I was suggesting. Worded differently, though.

They don't have to get close. They can sit "comfortably" behind their car and let the others shoot. Only if the Men In Black go for it and storm the carstle, they'd jump into action...in close combat, where it's easier to evade bullets, if the Watcher is stupid enough to try shooting at all.

If it did come to waiting it out while they shot at each other from behind cars, who has more bullets?

I assume that, if a fight broke out, it wouldn't be an easy victory for the Order, and if it came to close combat, Bree and Daniel wouldn't be all useless - the fear for your life should be a pretty good motivation.

We're using different assumptions then. I'm assuming it would never come to close combat. If you've got a gun, and you're there to kill them, you aren't going to let them get close.

... There are not unlimited Watchers around. If shit happens, Lucy might stand there, in the middle of nowhere, with only Alex as her backup - who's either under Daniel's control, or not much of a problem, 'cause she's attacking from the same direction. In the middle of nowhere.

Well, I'm assuming shit like that wouldn't happen. Maybe that's too presumptuous of me, but I think it's fair.

You're also assuming the people "joining them" at the beach obey similar rules as OpAphid. We don't know that, yet.

Fair enough.

And even if they did, OpAphid got rid of people for failing her/them - not as cannon fodder. Just because they decide to not let traitors and incompetents hang around their top secret facilities that doesn't automatically mean they'd sacrifice anybody for anything.

Well, actually, she iced them as a security measure on the off chance that they had something to do with it. She didn't actually have anything on them.

Not only would that require him to not watch them closely while they drive away with his Aunt that just betrayed him again, but it'd also mean Daniel or Bree would definitely pick up the gun and start shooting, while the Order could mostly not return fire until they left their cars.

Even with Jonas watching them it wouldn't matter as long as they were okay with replacing one of the windows in their car or van. And since he wasn't sitting in his car yet, I'd expect the gun would be on the ground on the side of the vehicle facing them. That seems pretty cozy.

Or Bree and Daniel just start running, giving them a few extra seconds until the Order is out of the car, and a whole lot of directions to run to, cause all Orderites are in the cars.

Oh, if they started running, I'd just go Grand Theft Auto on them. Who needs to get out of the car? Unless they're concerned with damaging their vehicles.

Perhaps because they didn't see the camcorder? I'm not sure I'd recognize a camcorder with a sideglance over a hundred meters distance while distracted with abducting and killing people. If they just thought it's the usual BD&J gang, they might have been arrogantly sure they wouldn't go to the police, simply because they didn't so far.

He got much closer than a hundred meters, but they were busy with the shooting and the removing and all, so .... Anyway, fair enough, though having control of the footage afterward in this case would settle all potential issues anyway.

Orrr ... if they fired up their internet browser and went to LG15.com or Revver. These MexiHo videos have been public videos which Lucy and the Order have known about since at least October (regardless of what was said in a recent retcon).

As I said at the top, "they are in a small town in Mexico" does not equal "they'll be at a deserted beach way off the main ones at about 5 PM tomorrow". And the more deserted their surroundings get, the more easily they'd have spotted a follower.

It wasn't "they're in a small town in Mexico," though, at all. It was "they're in a small town in Mexico, living in a house owned by Alex - heyyy, don't we know her? Shall we go bug it?"

A bit selfish, sure, but no more selfish than Bree's been. [...]

Yes it is...when Bree just left them for Tachyon, they were at least relatively safe - in a new house, with no indicators the Order knew where they were.

How about when Bree stole one of Jonas' cars - possibly with no intention of ever returning - so that she could go meet up with her dad? If Daniel and Jonas hadn't followed her, her dad would have been dead, she'd have been in Lucy's custody (probably because she would have been too scared to refuse the Order, and she didn't know about the free will thing then), and the Order would have been free to trace the car to Jonas and Daniel (whom they might off as payback). That's pretty selfish, dude.

In any case, when I said "arguably" I was referring to the fact that she's never decided to go out in the middle of nowhere alone and just give herself up for the sake of her friends (which is exactly what you said Alex should have done).

Oh come on. You're totally screwing the video style there! You first have to have a sad montage by Daniel, then a video by Daniel saying Jonas has been pretty down for the past few days, that they all can't quite understand what happened and how he could be so stupid to trust Alex, and that he and Bree will try to cheer Jonas up. Then a vid posted by Bree of her and Daniel actually trying to cheer Jonas up, and then one by Jonas apologizing for not saying anything for so long, and explaining to us how he totally cannot understand how Alex could betray him like that, and how he's now totally confused about whether or not his parents are alive, whether Bree is safe, or anything else she says, but he does know the house is not safe anymore and they have to move. (Two weeks later...yay for LG15 logic.)
Stay with the style, man.

(Alternatively, you could do it the other way round - second post being by Jonas, all aggressive, third being Bree alone, saying they've both been pretty down, and fourth being Bree trying to cheer them up.
...would leed to Dawson's Creek love triangle setup again, though.)

You're right, my mistake. Though Daniel might be interchangable with Jonas, depending on how the Creators wanted to take it. But, yes, my summary was way too fast-paced.

As we already know, though, Lucy won't take Bree by force. Even back during the rescue of Daniel, Lucy told her "It's your choice." And Alex knew they weren't there for Bree anyway.

Alex thought they weren't there for Bree, and Lucy didn't touch Bree as long as they still needed her.
Think about it: Bree's Dad was actually in the Order and knew almost nothing. And Alex, who's more of a "freelancer", is supposed to know what the Order plans in advance?

That's a fair point.

You seem to only consider something betrayal if harm resulted out of it...that's a logic like "my underling tried to kill me, but he missed...so it's fine".

That's not what I'm saying at all. There was no attempt at harm here, so I don't call it a betrayal. I'm just equating the attempt with the realization in this case because I'm assuming that BD&J would have been fucked if the Order wanted them dead.

Just because her treason didn't result in physical harm for BD&J doesn't make it any less treason.

Until we know why she left with them, I think it does. We don't know that she was being taken back to the office for a party.

And "physical" is the important word there - because psychologically, they were harmed. Both by the fact that they've been betrayed by someone they liked...again, as well as the fact that they're not safe anymore...again. They had a nice little kind of life down there, and Alex totally f**ked them over. She just didn't kick them in the balls afterwards.

When have they ever been safe? They've been posting videos publically. No retcon can change that the religious part of the Order has known about this since October (at the least; they probably knew even before then, considering that Bree's parents knew she'd snuck out). And, for that matter, how can the Order use their contacts to stifle media coverage of videos they don't know exist?

One can't have it both ways here. Either the media's all over this thing and the Order knows because of that, or the Order already knew and is keeping a lid on it.

Familiar with several, I guess?

I'm an unemployed student...I gotta make an income somehow.

True, true.

If that's a problem, then why send them in as a caravan? If their destination is the middle of nowhere (presumably outside the city), then why send them through the middle of the city like it was a parade?

Well, they've got to live somewhere. They don't just spawn in the fields...

Yeah, but they don't have to all be sent even in the same hour, much less by the same roads. If I were to see four or five black vehicles over the course of a few hours and in various parts of town, I bet it wouldn't stand out to me.

Actually, I took the ocean into account...we know that at least Bree can swim, and I assume the others can, to - so what disqualifies the Ocean as an escape route, when the other option is death or captivity?

The ocean would be choosing death. Bree can't swim forever.

And you seem to think they're kinda locked to one direction. They do have 360° to run - they may have to change directions once they reach the rock wall, but what gives? As long as running towards it helped escaping the order?

They'd technically have 360° to run in a 12x12 room with a glass cieling too, but that doesn't mean it's going to help. When you're running from people who are shooting, you don't want to have to start climbing walls and struggling up slopes.

About that "steep hill" that's supposedly blocking their escape...have you seen the blue stuff next to it in the first picture? It's water. Humans can pass through it. So they can circumvent the "hill", and are then protected from Order bullets and sight...so it's actually a great way to escape.

The water is far away from said hill. That image is from early in the video when they're walking down the slope. They'd have to run a long way down the beach in that direction to go around anything that would provide them cover - and bullets are faster than people.

P.S.: There are houses in wallaq3.jpg. No relation to the discussion, but I found it interesting to note.

I hadn't seen that, but you're right. Maybe we weren't supposed to notice.

You're saying there are only two ways to access the beach - one wide open one, where you see the attackers from kilometers distance, and one where the attackers are exposed on the slope of the hill, unable to spread wide, the only moving things on the entire rock wall...and you call that an advantage?

Totally. You only need room to spread when you're expecting return fire.

The only advantage here would be to have some snipers lay down on the rock wall and take them all out at the same time.

Thank you for providing an even more simple solution.

...but even for such a cheap tactic, this is one of the more stupid ones, because, while, in terms of shooting, the exposure of the targets and the protection of the shooters might be nice, the targets are constantly, unpredictably moving.

Except when they're laying down on towels. Or stationary on rocks while they look into the shallows.

If they wanted to do it the cheap way, it'd be way easier to use this opportunity to break into Alex's house to poison their food instead of following them out to the beach just to shoot them over a long distance, not knowing if they'll ever get a good shot.

Aren't you supposed to be making a case for how they could have been trying to kill them? This is a move in the opposite direction.

It's in line with what I said before about how cozy it was that they had the kids living in Alex's place.

That's possible, I suppose, but weren't you the one who said you should expect people that you're trying to kill to fight back?

Yes...but there's a difference between saying "how could you do this???" and raising your fists and going insane and pulling out a gun.

Would we be expecting them to fight for their lives or make an appeal to pathos?

Again, this is true. But just because the Order showed up (possibly because Alex told them where she'd be) doesn't make her one.

Just showing up doesn't.
Showing up because Alex told them where she'd be does.

Even if she told them exactly where to find her (which we don't know yet), I still disagree for reasons we've gone over.

I'm talking about in the time since they started living with Alex. Even in the time since a decision to kill Bree would have been made. Bree's been sleeping in the woman's house. I don't know how much more perfect it gets (that may be even more perfect than that beach).

Again, this is the first time we hear they could do that now...who knows how long Alex knew that? Maybe they just called her up the day before and told her to abort the mission, they found someone better?

According to your suggestion for reasoning that it was betrayal (in the way I've been using the term), she would have not only been in on the plan to kill them, but could have been the one to abort it beside the car with the "They're here for me" statement. So, again, why couldn't they have used an infinitely more simple method? Poison? Fire? Bomb? Your snipers?

The very fact that they will (should) decide to go on the run again now means a great stress for BD&J. Not to mention that the very fact that she disclosed their location to the Order is betrayal on its own - no matter if or what kind of harm followed because of it.

Sooo ... Bree, Daniel and Jonas have betrayed each other countless times with video uploads.

Pfft. Think about it this way: If it was that easy to expose the Order, why is there a need for TrueFreeWill and Tachyon and Brother?

Fair enough (particularly about presenting evidence that it was all fake). But, again, if they're keeping this stuff secret, then how did they not already know where to find BD&J?

Argh. Spent at least two hours on this.

Ouch. Well, I appreciate the effort.

[kellylen]

wow that is def the longest post ever

[Lurker]

wow that is def the longest post ever

I apologize, Kelly. I must really want Alex to be a good guy. There's few matters on here I've argued as extensively.

[kellylen]

shhh dont apologize. i just found it amusing that half my scrolling was that post

[PixieSailor]

I'm def. with Lurker on the whole Aunt Alex betrayal deal. Don't see the point of arguing my point since it's basically the exact same.

About Bree being all calm and shit - I think she most likely knew about the gun, and might have guessed about the order being there.

I don't know exactly what I think she knew, but I would say she knew enough to not be freaked out, just to be kind of calm and just...dejected? about it. Like too tired to do anything about it. + nothing bad DID happen, TAAG are perfectly fine, and the order might stop chasing Bree.

I'm SINCERELY hoping this means we don't have to ever watch one more "on the run from the order" videos.

[Languorous Lass]

I don't think the Creators comments are being ignored as much as they're not being seen. Not all fans read that one little corner of the forums. In fact, I'm sure there's a much higher percentage of fans who don't know about this than there are those who do.
I hate that it's frustrating you, but if we don't know, then we don't know.

Henry, it's nice to see you. And thanks for pointing out that not everyone may be aware of the announcement. I know it's been discussed multiple times in this thread, but the lengthy colloquy between Renegade and Lurker may very well have obscured those posts.

[kwicherbichen]

[*]"I don't have a choice" meaning the situation at hand makes no sense...they are right at the car, and they have a gun. It's not like their capturing by the Order is inevitable.

I realize that's from your discussion with mellie, but I do think it warrants mentioning that the car wasn't cranked up and they were udoubtedly outgunned. Trying to make a break for it in the car seems like a good way to get one or all of them killed. And wouldn't that make Alex even more selfish?

I was playing with the fact that it would mean her reaction was out of anger, like I said, rather than out of bitterness, like you said. Anger resulting from bitterness, but anger nonetheless.

That's what I was suggesting. Worded differently, though.

They don't have to get close. They can sit "comfortably" behind their car and let the others shoot. Only if the Men In Black go for it and storm the carstle, they'd jump into action...in close combat, where it's easier to evade bullets, if the Watcher is stupid enough to try shooting at all.

If it did come to waiting it out while they shot at each other from behind cars, who has more bullets?

I assume that, if a fight broke out, it wouldn't be an easy victory for the Order, and if it came to close combat, Bree and Daniel wouldn't be all useless - the fear for your life should be a pretty good motivation.

We're using different assumptions then. I'm assuming it would never come to close combat. If you've got a gun, and you're there to kill them, you aren't going to let them get close.

... There are not unlimited Watchers around. If shit happens, Lucy might stand there, in the middle of nowhere, with only Alex as her backup - who's either under Daniel's control, or not much of a problem, 'cause she's attacking from the same direction. In the middle of nowhere.

Well, I'm assuming shit like that wouldn't happen. Maybe that's too presumptuous of me, but I think it's fair.

You're also assuming the people "joining them" at the beach obey similar rules as OpAphid. We don't know that, yet.

Fair enough.

And even if they did, OpAphid got rid of people for failing her/them - not as cannon fodder. Just because they decide to not let traitors and incompetents hang around their top secret facilities that doesn't automatically mean they'd sacrifice anybody for anything.

Well, actually, she iced them as a security measure on the off chance that they had something to do with it. She didn't actually have anything on them.

Not only would that require him to not watch them closely while they drive away with his Aunt that just betrayed him again, but it'd also mean Daniel or Bree would definitely pick up the gun and start shooting, while the Order could mostly not return fire until they left their cars.

Even with Jonas watching them it wouldn't matter as long as they were okay with replacing one of the windows in their car or van. And since he wasn't sitting in his car yet, I'd expect the gun would be on the ground on the side of the vehicle facing them. That seems pretty cozy.

Or Bree and Daniel just start running, giving them a few extra seconds until the Order is out of the car, and a whole lot of directions to run to, cause all Orderites are in the cars.

Oh, if they started running, I'd just go Grand Theft Auto on them. Who needs to get out of the car? Unless they're concerned with damaging their vehicles.

Perhaps because they didn't see the camcorder? I'm not sure I'd recognize a camcorder with a sideglance over a hundred meters distance while distracted with abducting and killing people. If they just thought it's the usual BD&J gang, they might have been arrogantly sure they wouldn't go to the police, simply because they didn't so far.

He got much closer than a hundred meters, but they were busy with the shooting and the removing and all, so .... Anyway, fair enough, though having control of the footage afterward in this case would settle all potential issues anyway.

Orrr ... if they fired up their internet browser and went to LG15.com or Revver. These MexiHo videos have been public videos which Lucy and the Order have known about since at least October (regardless of what was said in a recent retcon).

As I said at the top, "they are in a small town in Mexico" does not equal "they'll be at a deserted beach way off the main ones at about 5 PM tomorrow". And the more deserted their surroundings get, the more easily they'd have spotted a follower.

It wasn't "they're in a small town in Mexico," though, at all. It was "they're in a small town in Mexico, living in a house owned by Alex - heyyy, don't we know her? Shall we go bug it?"

A bit selfish, sure, but no more selfish than Bree's been. [...]

Yes it is...when Bree just left them for Tachyon, they were at least relatively safe - in a new house, with no indicators the Order knew where they were.

How about when Bree stole one of Jonas' cars - possibly with no intention of ever returning - so that she could go meet up with her dad? If Daniel and Jonas hadn't followed her, her dad would have been dead, she'd have been in Lucy's custody (probably because she would have been too scared to refuse the Order, and she didn't know about the free will thing then), and the Order would have been free to trace the car to Jonas and Daniel (whom they might off as payback). That's pretty selfish, dude.

In any case, when I said "arguably" I was referring to the fact that she's never decided to go out in the middle of nowhere alone and just give herself up for the sake of her friends (which is exactly what you said Alex should have done).

Oh come on. You're totally screwing the video style there! You first have to have a sad montage by Daniel, then a video by Daniel saying Jonas has been pretty down for the past few days, that they all can't quite understand what happened and how he could be so stupid to trust Alex, and that he and Bree will try to cheer Jonas up. Then a vid posted by Bree of her and Daniel actually trying to cheer Jonas up, and then one by Jonas apologizing for not saying anything for so long, and explaining to us how he totally cannot understand how Alex could betray him like that, and how he's now totally confused about whether or not his parents are alive, whether Bree is safe, or anything else she says, but he does know the house is not safe anymore and they have to move. (Two weeks later...yay for LG15 logic.)
Stay with the style, man.

(Alternatively, you could do it the other way round - second post being by Jonas, all aggressive, third being Bree alone, saying they've both been pretty down, and fourth being Bree trying to cheer them up.
...would leed to Dawson's Creek love triangle setup again, though.)

You're right, my mistake. Though Daniel might be interchangable with Jonas, depending on how the Creators wanted to take it. But, yes, my summary was way too fast-paced.

As we already know, though, Lucy won't take Bree by force. Even back during the rescue of Daniel, Lucy told her "It's your choice." And Alex knew they weren't there for Bree anyway.

Alex thought they weren't there for Bree, and Lucy didn't touch Bree as long as they still needed her.
Think about it: Bree's Dad was actually in the Order and knew almost nothing. And Alex, who's more of a "freelancer", is supposed to know what the Order plans in advance?

That's a fair point.

You seem to only consider something betrayal if harm resulted out of it...that's a logic like "my underling tried to kill me, but he missed...so it's fine".

That's not what I'm saying at all. There was no attempt at harm here, so I don't call it a betrayal. I'm just equating the attempt with the realization in this case because I'm assuming that BD&J would have been fucked if the Order wanted them dead.

Just because her treason didn't result in physical harm for BD&J doesn't make it any less treason.

Until we know why she left with them, I think it does. We don't know that she was being taken back to the office for a party.

And "physical" is the important word there - because psychologically, they were harmed. Both by the fact that they've been betrayed by someone they liked...again, as well as the fact that they're not safe anymore...again. They had a nice little kind of life down there, and Alex totally f**ked them over. She just didn't kick them in the balls afterwards.

When have they ever been safe? They've been posting videos publically. No retcon can change that the religious part of the Order has known about this since October (at the least; they probably knew even before then, considering that Bree's parents knew she'd snuck out). And, for that matter, how can the Order use their contacts to stifle media coverage of videos they don't know exist?

One can't have it both ways here. Either the media's all over this thing and the Order knows because of that, or the Order already knew and is keeping a lid on it.

Familiar with several, I guess?

I'm an unemployed student...I gotta make an income somehow.

True, true.

If that's a problem, then why send them in as a caravan? If their destination is the middle of nowhere (presumably outside the city), then why send them through the middle of the city like it was a parade?

Well, they've got to live somewhere. They don't just spawn in the fields...

Yeah, but they don't have to all be sent even in the same hour, much less by the same roads. If I were to see four or five black vehicles over the course of a few hours and in various parts of town, I bet it wouldn't stand out to me.

Actually, I took the ocean into account...we know that at least Bree can swim, and I assume the others can, to - so what disqualifies the Ocean as an escape route, when the other option is death or captivity?

The ocean would be choosing death. Bree can't swim forever.

And you seem to think they're kinda locked to one direction. They do have 360° to run - they may have to change directions once they reach the rock wall, but what gives? As long as running towards it helped escaping the order?

They'd technically have 360° to run in a 12x12 room with a glass cieling too, but that doesn't mean it's going to help. When you're running from people who are shooting, you don't want to have to start climbing walls and struggling up slopes.

About that "steep hill" that's supposedly blocking their escape...have you seen the blue stuff next to it in the first picture? It's water. Humans can pass through it. So they can circumvent the "hill", and are then protected from Order bullets and sight...so it's actually a great way to escape.

The water is far away from said hill. That image is from early in the video when they're walking down the slope. They'd have to run a long way down the beach in that direction to go around anything that would provide them cover - and bullets are faster than people.

P.S.: There are houses in wallaq3.jpg. No relation to the discussion, but I found it interesting to note.

I hadn't seen that, but you're right. Maybe we weren't supposed to notice.

You're saying there are only two ways to access the beach - one wide open one, where you see the attackers from kilometers distance, and one where the attackers are exposed on the slope of the hill, unable to spread wide, the only moving things on the entire rock wall...and you call that an advantage?

Totally. You only need room to spread when you're expecting return fire.

The only advantage here would be to have some snipers lay down on the rock wall and take them all out at the same time.

Thank you for providing an even more simple solution.

...but even for such a cheap tactic, this is one of the more stupid ones, because, while, in terms of shooting, the exposure of the targets and the protection of the shooters might be nice, the targets are constantly, unpredictably moving.

Except when they're laying down on towels. Or stationary on rocks while they look into the shallows.

If they wanted to do it the cheap way, it'd be way easier to use this opportunity to break into Alex's house to poison their food instead of following them out to the beach just to shoot them over a long distance, not knowing if they'll ever get a good shot.

Aren't you supposed to be making a case for how they could have been trying to kill them? This is a move in the opposite direction.

It's in line with what I said before about how cozy it was that they had the kids living in Alex's place.

That's possible, I suppose, but weren't you the one who said you should expect people that you're trying to kill to fight back?

Yes...but there's a difference between saying "how could you do this???" and raising your fists and going insane and pulling out a gun.

Would we be expecting them to fight for their lives or make an appeal to pathos?

Again, this is true. But just because the Order showed up (possibly because Alex told them where she'd be) doesn't make her one.

Just showing up doesn't.
Showing up because Alex told them where she'd be does.

Even if she told them exactly where to find her (which we don't know yet), I still disagree for reasons we've gone over.

I'm talking about in the time since they started living with Alex. Even in the time since a decision to kill Bree would have been made. Bree's been sleeping in the woman's house. I don't know how much more perfect it gets (that may be even more perfect than that beach).

Again, this is the first time we hear they could do that now...who knows how long Alex knew that? Maybe they just called her up the day before and told her to abort the mission, they found someone better?

According to your suggestion for reasoning that it was betrayal (in the way I've been using the term), she would have not only been in on the plan to kill them, but could have been the one to abort it beside the car with the "They're here for me" statement. So, again, why couldn't they have used an infinitely more simple method? Poison? Fire? Bomb? Your snipers?

The very fact that they will (should) decide to go on the run again now means a great stress for BD&J. Not to mention that the very fact that she disclosed their location to the Order is betrayal on its own - no matter if or what kind of harm followed because of it.

Sooo ... Bree, Daniel and Jonas have betrayed each other countless times with video uploads.

Pfft. Think about it this way: If it was that easy to expose the Order, why is there a need for TrueFreeWill and Tachyon and Brother?

Fair enough (particularly about presenting evidence that it was all fake). But, again, if they're keeping this stuff secret, then how did they not already know where to find BD&J?

Argh. Spent at least two hours on this.

Ouch. Well, I appreciate the effort.

This is why we love lurker.

[kwicherbichen]

Hmm...this could be a long one.

Renigade, your post was well thought out and thought provoking. Most of it was dead on and I agree with it.

There has been a lot of back and forth on this already, so instead of counterpointing that, let me speak a bit about Alex' innocence:

The Order has known where TAAG were since the first public video of the kids down there. We've repeatedly told the group to stop posting such obvious indicators of their position. They've ignored us. That the Order showed up was inevitable. That the TAAG reacted inappropriately with a rush to judgment that was erroneous, was also inevitable.

That Alex reacted as she did was adult and admirable. Look at it from her POV. A beautiful day, fun with her newest paramour and his friends... Then suddenly she spots the cars. Her first reaction was to get in their car. She expects her group to run. Then Daniel asks "Did you set us up?" She responds, "No, I..."

Daniel interrupts with, "Is this you? Did you do this?" and Jonas starts yelling, "She betrayed us."
She's shocked and horrified that her new found haven, her friends are so quick to turn against her. She starts shouting "Why would I do a..." and again she's interrupted.

She tries to stay calm and on their side, but as they continue to insist that she betrayed them, she changes to "I don't have a choice." This could mean either she had no choice but to work with the Order, or it could mean they are giving her no choice now.

She desparately tries one more time. "They're not after you, they're after me!" She's telling them that because she betrayed the Order they're hunting her down. It doesn't work. They're still hostile.

Then Jonas pulls a gun. Panic everywhere. Even Alex panics. But instead of lashing out against them, she bitterly crys, "I can't leave now" and then, gaining back some calm; resigned to her fate; hating the group that spurned her, aware of the Order breathing down her neck, she lashes out. Tries to hurt, "They don't need you any more."

Where is this post? I totally missed it on the way.
Anyway, I'm not saying her initial reactions don't fit. What I am complaining about is what mellie described so well:

The change, the almost instant change, that occurs between 2.22 and 2.23 really freaks me out. Her face goes deap-pan. She looks exactly like she did when she did the evil message to Bree in "Alex is...". The transformation is sudden.

It was just too fast. I admit, over a longer period of time, everybody would probably be fed up with the accusations and turn angry instead - but not within one second, when your live is just being threatened from two sides.
Also, there are some problems with your theory:

• Videos are posted on the web, yes, but after the events they portray. They are on a lonely beach with only one road leading to it - the one used by both them and the Order. So there's no way someone could have followed them unnoticed. So...how did the Order know they're there? Even if they watch the videos (which, according to The Powers of Retcon, they' don't), they would only know they're in Mexico - not that they're at a beach, and not at which particular beach.
• Alex's initial reaction, getting into the car, suggests she's "good". However, if that's the case why would she leave with the Order? Even if she's pissed off by their behavior, she's convinced them before that she's not evil - just walking into the Order's arms after betraying them is the most stupid thing she could do...especially after she heard from BD&J what happened to them after Las Vegas.
• "I don't have a choice" meaning the situation at hand makes no sense...they are right at the car, and they have a gun. It's not like their capturing by the Order is inevitable. What's more problematic with this is what she says after "I don't have a choice": "I don't have a choice, alright?! I still have to do--" and "They're not here for you anyway, they're here for me, I have one more--" - both clearly implying that this was in no way a coincidence, but the Order called her for one last job, and this is the agreed pick-up location.
• If she was really "good", on the side of BD&J, loving Jonas and growing feelings for Daniel, then Jonas pointing a gun at her should majorly devastate her - not turn her Order within one second.
• And all of that doesn't take into account Alex understanding. I mean, she takes them to a deserted beach somewhere at the ass of Mexico, and right then the Order shows up. Every sane human would know what that looks like. She'd understand that this looks bad for her, continue screaming that she's innocent, just so there's no doubt, stay close to Daniel, who's protecting her from Jonas, and get with them into the car to try to convince them later, when they're calm. Just leaving them for the Order when she's actually on their side, just because they think she set them up, when it obviously looks like she did, makes no sense at all.

Like I said above, and in previous posts - the problem is not her initial reaction. That makes perfect sense. What just doesn't fit is her sudden change mid-situation. It is totally uncalled for and just too quick to be natural - unless she was faking before.

(Which is all not taking into account "meta" reasons of bad script, bad acting, and the like.)

Speaking of which ... now to Renegade's post. Round 2, huh?

It's on.

Which would, ultimately, make her angry at Bree?

Why not? Less rational things happen, like a father blaming his kid for the mother dying in childbirth. If Bree had just gone along with the ceremony way back when, the Order would have never called up Alex for a favor.

I was playing with the fact that it would mean her reaction was out of anger, like I said, rather than out of bitterness, like you said. Anger resulting from bitterness, but anger nonetheless.

I don't think we'll be able to agree on that particular point, but I can live with that. I think it was just bitterness.

I agree that we won't agree.

I think you're misunderstanding my use of "they're not going to do a thing." They're not going to do anything in the sense that they're going to get mowed down before they can even get close.

They don't have to get close. They can sit "comfortably" behind their car and let the others shoot. Only if the Men In Black go for it and storm the carstle, they'd jump into action...in close combat, where it's easier to evade bullets, if the Watcher is stupid enough to try shooting at all.

I actually almost suggested that you were assuming that (because of the reference to Daniel or Bree fighting).

I assume that, if a fight broke out, it wouldn't be an easy victory for the Order, and if it came to close combat, Bree and Daniel wouldn't be all useless - the fear for your life should be a pretty good motivation.

That's all assuming P.Monkey isn't in the trunk, of course...he'd just roundhouse kick the Order to hell if they let him loose.

I rather disagree. In part because I don't think they're that worried over losing a couple of agents. Heck, OpAphid offed her assistants and security detail on concerns of negligence or betrayal when Tachyon knew when Op would be posting a video.

Well, dead people can't capture teenagers. At least not until Bree does the ceremony. (hehehe...kidding, kidding)
To be serious, though, think of it this way: There are not unlimited Watchers around. If shit happens, Lucy might stand there, in the middle of nowhere, with only Alex as her backup - who's either under Daniel's control, or not much of a problem, 'cause she's attacking from the same direction. In the middle of nowhere.
You're also assuming the people "joining them" at the beach obey similar rules as OpAphid. We don't know that, yet. And even if they did, OpAphid got rid of people for failing her/them - not as cannon fodder. Just because they decide to not let traitors and incompetents hang around their top secret facilities that doesn't automatically mean they'd sacrifice anybody for anything.

I didn't say shoot him and drive away. I said pretend to leave, shoot him while they were driving past him, and then hop out and take the others.

Or at least that's what I meant to say. Sorry if it wasn't clearer.

Not only would that require him to not watch them closely while they drive away with his Aunt that just betrayed him again, but it'd also mean Daniel or Bree would definitely pick up the gun and start shooting, while the Order could mostly not return fire until they left their cars. Or Bree and Daniel just start running, giving them a few extra seconds until the Order is out of the car, and a whole lot of directions to run to, cause all Orderites are in the cars. (And no, they can't just shoot them, too, if the run back to the beach - there's first the car and then the "rock wall" you mentioned in the way.

The people they were allowing to run away were still witnesses - and if they were looking toward Jonas at all, they would have seen the camcorder. Jonas said they didn't even seem to give any consideration to them and just went about removing the body of Bree's dad.

Perhaps because they didn't see the camcorder? I'm not sure I'd recognize a camcorder with a sideglance over a hundred meters distance while distracted with abducting and killing people.
If they just thought it's the usual BD&J gang, they might have been arrogantly sure they wouldn't go to the police, simply because they didn't so far.

Orrr ... if they fired up their internet browser and went to LG15.com or Revver. These MexiHo videos have been public videos which Lucy and the Order have known about since at least October (regardless of what was said in a recent retcon).

As I said at the top, "they are in a small town in Mexico" does not equal "they'll be at a deserted beach way off the main ones at about 5 PM tomorrow". And the more deserted their surroundings get, the more easily they'd have spotted a follower.

A bit selfish, sure, but no more selfish than Bree's been. [...]

Yes it is...when Bree just left them for Tachyon, they were at least relatively safe - in a new house, with no indicators the Order knew where they were. Alex just lead the Order directly to them.

As for Jonas' last memory of her being that she was "the c**t who sold us out to the Order," I hope to God Jonas is more intelligent than to stand around doing this after they drove away:

Jonas: "That evil bitch! I can't believe I ever trusted her! She totally sold us out! Look at her ... riding away in that Order vehicle ... which she seemed less than thrilled about to begin with ... while we're back here safe and sound ... and after she dropped a bomb on us like 'They don't need you anymore, Bree'! I just ... ugh ... I can't believe this. What a horrible bitch. Well ... ... ... who's up for foosball? I hear they don't need Bree anymore, so it should be cool. Yep, don't need her anymore. Just like we don't need that evil aunt of mine who sold us out to the Order!"

Oh come on. You're totally screwing the video style there! You first have to have a sad montage by Daniel, then a video by Daniel saying Jonas has been pretty down for the past few days, that they all can't quite understand what happened and how he could be so stupid to trust Alex, and that he and Bree will try to cheer Jonas up. Then a vid posted by Bree of her and Daniel actually trying to cheer Jonas up, and then one by Jonas apologizing for not saying anything for so long, and explaining to us how he totally cannot understand how Alex could betray him like that, and how he's now totally confused about whether or not his parents are alive, whether Bree is safe, or anything else she says, but he does know the house is not safe anymore and they have to move. (Two weeks later...yay for LG15 logic.)
Stay with the style, man.

(Alternatively, you could do it the other way round - second post being by Jonas, all aggressive, third being Bree alone, saying they've both been pretty down, and fourth being Bree trying to cheer them up.
...would leed to Dawson's Creek love triangle setup again, though.)

As we already know, though, Lucy won't take Bree by force. Even back during the rescue of Daniel, Lucy told her "It's your choice." And Alex knew they weren't there for Bree anyway.

Alex thought they weren't there for Bree, and Lucy didn't touch Bree as long as they still needed her.
Think about it: Bree's Dad was actually in the Order and knew almost nothing. And Alex, who's more of a "freelancer", is supposed to know what the Order plans in advance?
Even if they assured her over the telephone they weren't going to take them - it wouldn't be the first time the Order lied to her, and it wouldn't be all that stupid to not be honest to someone who potentially betrayed you.
Alex knows nothing. Blindly trusting that the Order reveals their ultimate plans to a semi-outsider who's also a family member of one of the targets and has been giving them shelter for the past few days is just stupid.

Do we even know that she said "Be there at such and such time"? In any case, no, that doesn't look like a heinous betrayal at all - because they did absolutely nothing to Bree, Daniel or Jonas.

You seem to only consider something betrayal if harm resulted out of it...that's a logic like "my underling tried to kill me, but he missed...so it's fine". Do you think one company would be fine with an employee selling their secrets to a competitor, just because the competitor decided not to use them?
Just because her treason didn't result in physical harm for BD&J doesn't make it any less treason. And "physical" is the important word there - because psychologically, they were harmed. Both by the fact that they've been betrayed by someone they liked...again, as well as the fact that they're not safe anymore...again. They had a nice little kind of life down there, and Alex totally f**ked them over. She just didn't kick them in the balls afterwards.

Familiar with several, I guess?

I'm an unemployed student...I gotta make an income somehow.

Is that really a problem? Is success or Lucy's ego more important?

That depends on how important Lucy and her supporters are in the Order, and on how high she wants to be in it - if she strives to be Head Mistress one day, looking weak by not being able to take out a few kids is not a good base to start from.

If that's a problem, then why send them in as a caravan? If their destination is the middle of nowhere (presumably outside the city), then why send them through the middle of the city like it was a parade?

Well, they've got to live somewhere. They don't just spawn in the fields...

Actually that beach would be a beautiful place for an ambush. It's less than 180° to flee, Ren. There's an ocean on one side, a large natural rock wall on another, and then a steep hill on yet another side, with the slope BDA&J went down apparently being the only way up/down along there. That leaves only one open side to use to try running away - and if the Orderites were to approach by way of both the slope and the open stretch of beach (or even just the slope), what could go wrong (especially if you left some people back at the car in case one of them somehow got that far)?

Actually, I took the ocean into account...we know that at least Bree can swim, and I assume the others can, to - so what disqualifies the Ocean as an escape route, when the other option is death or captivity?
And you seem to think they're kinda locked to one direction. They do have 360° to run - they may have to change directions once they reach the rock wall, but what gives? As long as running towards it helped escaping the order?
About that "steep hill" that's supposedly blocking their escape...have you seen the blue stuff next to it in the first picture? It's water. Humans can pass through it. So they can circumvent the "hill", and are then protected from Order bullets and sight...so it's actually a great way to escape.
And in the second picture, it actually looks sloped enough to be passable normally. It may be steeper than a stairway, but it's by far not "blocking their way". Parts of it are even less steep than the slope we see the TAAG come down.
Last but not least, the rock wall: I am actually not convinced it's impossible to climb it up. It's not entirely vertical, there are lots of ledges on it, and the plants make for good things to grab. Sure, the other ways might be smarter choices, but if they run parallel to it until they find a good spot to climb up (the slope they took down being proof enough there are such spots), they can escape over it just as well.

So I don't quite see how they're limited to two blockable ways there.


P.S.: There are houses in wallaq3.jpg. No relation to the discussion, but I found it interesting to note.

The Orderites would have had the complete advantage in approaching. Not just in what options would be available to BD&J when they knew they were under attack, but in what kind of visibility the group would have had in seeing an approaching enemy (hills, slopes, etc.) By the time BD&J knew someone was there, they'd be as good as toast.

You're saying there are only two ways to access the beach - one wide open one, where you see the attackers from kilometers distance, and one where the attackers are exposed on the slope of the hill, unable to spread wide, the only moving things on the entire rock wall...and you call that an advantage?

The only advantage here would be to have some snipers lay down on the rock wall and take them all out at the same time.
...but even for such a cheap tactic, this is one of the more stupid ones, because, while, in terms of shooting, the exposure of the targets and the protection of the shooters might be nice, the targets are constantly, unpredictably moving.
If they wanted to do it the cheap way, it'd be way easier to use this opportunity to break into Alex's house to poison their food instead of following them out to the beach just to shoot them over a long distance, not knowing if they'll ever get a good shot.

Fair enough. Alex may be a traitor, but I still say it's a stretch to call her that based on this particular event.

Truth is, even assuming I'm right, and Alex being a traitor is the only logical explanation for everything, that doesn't mean it'll be The Creators' explanation. It wouldn't be the first time totally weird and inexplicable behavior is absolutely normal in the Breeniverse.

That's possible, I suppose, but weren't you the one who said you should expect people that you're trying to kill to fight back?

Yes...but there's a difference between saying "how could you do this???" and raising your fists and going insane and pulling out a gun.

Well, I personally feel like I argued it pretty well. I guess I'll have to wait for your response to see if I can change your mind or if you can change mine, but right now I'm thinking that if I ever worked for a malevolent organization that wanted me to ambush and kill some people, I'd feel like the geography was on my side at that beach.

As you can see from my response, I disagree.

Again, this is true. But just because the Order showed up (possibly because Alex told them where she'd be) doesn't make her one.

Just showing up doesn't.
Showing up because Alex told them where she'd be does.

I'm talking about in the time since they started living with Alex. Even in the time since a decision to kill Bree would have been made. Bree's been sleeping in the woman's house. I don't know how much more perfect it gets (that may be even more perfect than that beach).

Again, this is the first time we hear they could do that now...who knows how long Alex knew that? Maybe they just called her up the day before and told her to abort the mission, they found someone better?

Based on what, though? The fact that they showed up? That doesn't really do it for me.

The fact that they showed up after Alex called them to arrange a meeting at a deserted location, and made sure the TAAG would be there.

She did nothing that would bring harm to BD&J there, so I can't see her behavior as traitorous. At least not at the moment.

Again, treason, betrayal, is not limited to bringing physical harm to somebody. The very fact that they will (should) decide to go on the run again now means a great stress for BD&J. Not to mention that the very fact that she disclosed their location to the Order is betrayal on its own - no matter if or what kind of harm followed because of it.

No. But they presumably don't control LG15.com, the fans who frequent it, the blogs they write, the telephones they would use to harass their local media outlets, the reporters (like Nikki B) who watch and who have their own means of spreading the word, etc. There'd have to be a whole lot of dead people and vanishing websites to keep these uncomfortable facts concealed.

Pfft. Think about it this way: If it was that easy to expose the Order, why is there a need for TrueFreeWill and Tachyon and Brother?
All they need is to control the police, the few, big media outlets, and a few higher political offices. That may sound like much for us, but after what's been implied and said in the series before, it sounds like the Order controls much more than that.

Think about it: Maddison Atkins decides to call the police. Calls 911. If she does it anonymously, people will think it's a stupid prank ("Secret Order controlling the country and abducting chosen girls...yeah right.") - so she leaves her name and more data, enough for the police to identify and find her. Police is under Order control, so the Order knows someone knows about them and talks, gets the address, and sends the Men in Black.

Now, how many people would you try to tell about the Order, after, after you made just one call about them, two big guys in shades and suits stood before your door and told you you and your family might have "a freak accident" if you ever opened your mouth again? How many others would open their mouths if they heard your story?

That goes for small, independent reporters as well. And those in the big media outlets are just silenced by "someone higher up" deciding that "their story sounds ridiculous and we're not gonna destroy our journalistic credibility by sending it".

There's reasons for some of those that are more simple and less sinister than an agenda of covering up the truth (I won't go into them because that's a whole other topic to itself; though hiding the truth was the idea in some cases), but I will say this: Ordinary people didn't have access to the info on those cases. That's different here. The media was the gatekeepers there. Not necessarily so here.

Yeah, right...people were convinced LG15 was fake because the lighting was too good and the videos were too clear - and you expect them to believe in a nationwide conspiracy up into government because some random chick on youtube says so?
9/11 had its images on media outlets all over the world. Many of the sites questioning the official government report use footage sent by CNN or similar sources, even the governments own texts, to support their arguments.
Some random girl on the internet does not have this kind of credibility. It just takes five Order shills to start a discussion about her being fake in the video comments, and it might be over already. If they then fake some evidence that she is fake, it's definitely over. Sure, a few dozen people might believe her, but hey...let the police handle it. Who's gonna believe them?




Argh. Spent at least two hours on this. No proofreading for you.

And this is why we love Renegade.

Renegade + Lurker yaoi quote box fest

[kwicherbichen]

Is Maddison Atkins for real in this?

I hope not cuz she is a sucky ass actress and that that pretty either.

[JustAnotherLonelyGirl.]

Kwicherbichen, I just almost died laughing. I scroll through this huge long quote to see "This is why we love Lurker."