The New Fan Fic Section

[TOSG]

There sure was a lot of doom and gloom. People were concerned about needing to look at 5 different forums to keep up whatever vids they had been following and that just wasn't the case. "Haphazardly strewn" wasn't it how you described it?

I have indeed been checking three forums to find the posts that were previously contained in one forum. That is certainly an inconvenience. And yes, I do think that it's haphazardly strewn, as indicated by the recent proposal to keep all ARG discussion in the "In Depth Discussion" forum, even when it involves newly created videos/puzzles. While I think that proposal is as good as any given the constraints of the redesign, it certainly does not exemplify neat categorization.

And yes, there was - understandably - a lot of "doom and gloom." But your facetious remark about the sky not falling fails to take into account the reality of the situation; we were annoyed then, and we're annoyed now. The sky isn't going to fall because we're powerless to make any changes ourselves (and, our suggestions have for the most part fallen on deaf ears).

[immortal1]

Functionally using the thread directory works as if the threads were all in the same section.

Actually, it doesn't. I will repeat myself, with a thread directory, someone has to manually create what would be automatically generated by the forum. IMO, it's ridiculous to require the ARGs to compensate manually for poor forum organization.

The links were already being maintained in the lgpedia. If you're already adding a link to the lgpedia is it really hardship to add the same link to the thread directory? Doesn't matter-Trainer has volunteered to do it so no one is being required to do anything.

In fact, it's probably better because they are categorized and sorted by date. If all the threads were in the same section they would move up and down the list according to the date of the last post.

Actually, again, no. It is far better to have the links move up an down according to where the active conversation is. Otherwise you have to go searching through all the links to figure out what the hot topic is. It is not always chronological. Many times older threads become reactivated as new information is revealed. In a forum, when this happens the link will automatically float to the top. In manual thread organization, someone must actually move it, which is what I have been doing in the Jpedia since it's existence. This requires quite a bit of attention that could be better spent making entries to the LGpedia that are more substantive.

But isn't the purpose for an historical perspective? So that new people can catch up and jump in? You usually start that at the beginning and not the most recent happening. So for the user and that intended purpose, it functions better. Besides now you have both-how is that bad?

I noticed the Facility J has a cleaner user more user friendly look to it.

If you note the discussion thread on the back of the main page, you will notice these are changes that have been in the works for quite some time. What people who are not involved in editing the LGpedia don't seem to understand, is that it is a considerable amount of work that unfolds over time. It doesn't happen overnight. The good thing that is occuring out of this problem with the fanfic reordering, is that our little group of players are banding together to protect our game from this threat to its demise.

Actually I've done a lot of lgpedia work and don't find it labor intensive but that's just me. That's a little melodramatic don't you think? These changes weren't made to harm anyone and I don't agree that they put your game under threat. These changes also weren't made without the Creators approval. I'm sure they are aware of what's going on and how it's being handled and would step in if you were being hindered from trying to do what you want to do.

Last week some people were up and arms about how things would work and the sky didn't fall. Let's put these new changes into practice for a week and see how it goes.

In case you hadn't noticed, we're still up in arms.

But look around, no one else is. You think the mods are sitting on a ton of PMs from people complaining they can't follow FacilityJ now and just aren't doing anything about it? Cassie fans aren't complaining, vid makers aren't complaining, actually other than this, to my knowledge, no one is. I think we've all tried very hard to work within the structure to accomodate you. What more do you want? The In Depth section only has primarily FacilityJ, itscassie and HSA threads. Do you have a problem sharing the section with them? You shouldn't because according to you the most recent and important FacilityJ threads rise to the top. Trainer has said you can put New Release threads in there. Having them also in the New Release section also only benefits you. Otherwise when new people look for new vids to watch they won't even know about FacilityJ but if you want everything in the same section I say go for it.

I make vids. If anyone knows your struggles it's me. Believe it or not, I'm on your side. I took a break from making vids because I felt like we weren't properly being promoted and supported. That's why I got involved in these forum changes and that's why I feel a respobsibilty to make them work for everyone but it seems you will accept nothing short of getting your own dedicated section. I can't help you with that. The mods can't help you with that. If that's the case, nothing we do or try will be good enough-you're going to have to take it up with the Creators.

[TOSG]

Immortal, I don't like how you're casting this as a couple of whiners with ulterior motives, against everyone else. That couldn't be further from reality.

This isn't about FacilityJ "having a problem with sharing a section" with other videos/ARGs. Post after post, we've made points about how the current organization isn't conducive to the smooth operation of ARGs. A few people who are active in HSA have come into this thread making similar points. We weren't complaining before, when FacilityJ shared space with EVERY other video (although it certainly wasn't ideal for almost anyone).

And it's not like we're such a disgruntled minority. Most people are unlikely to go against the status quo, however bad it may be, but all I know is that this thread has several people critiquing the new changes, and only you (besides the moderators/administrators that brought these changes about) supporting them.

EDIT: Immortal, I also get the impression from some of your previous posts (I apologize if I'm wrong) that you don't like ARGs. Cool - that's fine, nobody is forcing you to. But it boggles that you seem so intent on begrudging us ARG fans the creation of a forum dedicated to playing and discussing the well-established fan ARGs. If you don't like those ARGs, then fine - just ignore that forum, and be glad that your videos aren't cluttered among a bunch of ARG posts.

It seems from your previous posts that you had a hand in this redesign. I commend your efforts, but I hope that you won't be so closed-minded as to shoot down all suggestions of improvement, just because they don't fit into your original vision.

[immortal1]

There sure was a lot of doom and gloom. People were concerned about needing to look at 5 different forums to keep up whatever vids they had been following and that just wasn't the case. "Haphazardly strewn" wasn't it how you described it?

I have indeed been checking three forums to find the posts that were previously contained in one forum. That is certainly an inconvenience. And yes, I do think that it's haphazardly strewn, as indicated by the recent proposal to keep all ARG discussion in the "In Depth Discussion" forum, even when it involves newly created videos/puzzles. While I think that proposal is as good as any given the constraints of the redesign, it certainly does not exemplify neat categorization.

And yes, there was - understandably - a lot of "doom and gloom." But your facetious remark about the sky not falling fails to take into account the reality of the situation; we were annoyed then, and we're annoyed now. The sky isn't going to fall because we're powerless to make any changes ourselves (and, our suggestions have for the most part fallen on deaf ears).

I wasn't trying to be facetious nor was I trying to minimize anyone's concerns but it's a good example, 3 forums is not 5. It's not as bad as people made it out to be. You also said smaller fanfic would get buried and that hasn't happened. It was the same for just about all of the other concerns.

Still a inconvience for you, I understand that but is it representative of the majority?

Immortal, I don't like how you're casting this as a couple of whiners with ulterior motives, against everyone else. That couldn't be further from reality.

Now I have an issue with you TOSG. I don't appreciate how in your previous post you try to make it look like I was minimizing anyone's concerns and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth here.

This isn't about FacilityJ "having a problem with sharing a section" with other videos/ARGs. Post after post, we've made points about how the current organization isn't conducive to the smooth operation of ARGs. A few people who are active in HSA have come into this thread making similar points. We weren't complaining before, when FacilityJ shared space with EVERY other video (although it certainly wasn't ideal for almost anyone).

It's my understanding that you want all FaciltyJ threads in the same section right? To my knowledge that's what exists now in the In Depth discussion area. It's my understanding that new releases threads for FaciltyJ will be allowed in the In Depth section. Trainer merely suggested duplicate links in the New Release section as a redirect. I'm just unclear what is left to discuss? It would seem sharing was the only thing left.

And it's not like we're such a disgruntled minority. Most people are unlikely to go against the status quo, however bad it may be, but all I know is that this thread has several people critiquing the new changes, and only you (besides the moderators/administrators that brought these changes about) supporting them.

I think you're clearly disgruntled and I think you are in the minority. If you want to keep a tally. 6 people have posted concerns, of them 1 said they believed the lgpedia and thread directory might be good enough. 3 including myself support it. 1 said they think it will be a good change. Of the mods 2 are filmmakers, including 1 ARG fan and 1 FacilityJ player. You certainly have representation in that regard. It's really irrelevant because you can't discern just from the people who post in this thread who is happy and who is not. The mods have said they aren't getting other complaints. I was in the customer service industry for many years it's a fact that when service is bad not only do people complain, but if it's bad enough they tell everyone they know. When was the last time you called customer service to tell them "good job?" It don't happen so you're wrong about people not bucking status quo. They spoke up when they thought Yousef was being fired, they spoke up in defense of Glenn. People on this board speak up in mass when necessary.

EDIT: Immortal, I also get the impression from some of your previous posts (I apologize if I'm wrong) that you don't like ARGs. Cool - that's fine, nobody is forcing you to. But it boggles that you seem so intent on begrudging us ARG fans the creation of a forum dedicated to playing and discussing the well-established fan ARGs. If you don't like those ARGs, then fine - just ignore that forum, and be glad that your videos aren't cluttered among a bunch of ARG posts.

It seems from your previous posts that you had a hand in this redesign. I commend your efforts, but I hope that you won't be so closed-minded as to shoot down all suggestions of improvement, just because they don't fit into your original vision.

I said the following in my first post in this thread:

Everyone who goes to the trouble to make something should have an equal opportunity to be seen. If you take a look at the official lg15 forum sections there is a "Mysteries in Plot" section and a "OpAphid: The Official LG15 Alternate Reality Game" section. I can see making a separation based on that. So maybe there should be a fan created ARG section. FARG?

I think it's inevitable that Fan ARG has it's own section but it's not my call.

I support the ARG because it's important to the success of the show but I also believe if it ever got bigger than the show than the show wouldn't succeed. I favor storytelling over storygaming. That has no relevance to this situation as you can see from this post, I support fan ARG getting it's own section. The only thing I don't support is any one series, as you have suggested, getting their own section unless it meets certain criteria. The popularity of these things is just too inconsistent. FacilityJ may be the flavor of the month now but there is no telling for how long and it's my understanding it hasn't reached the popularity of CiW in it's heyday.

TOSG in your last two posts you've portrayed me as someone who is facetious and minimizes others concerns, dismissive, close minded and has a grudge against ARG fans. I think my words and actions prove otherwise and portray you simply, as wrong.

I hope you there's no hard feelings. There are none on this end.

[ShardinsKitten]

Actually I have stated a couple times in this thread that if nothing else, fan created ARGs should have their own section, as a whole. And proven Fan Fic ARGs should be contained there.

You know it's a mess when the mods can't even move stuff in the right areas to start with.

People getting fired is completely different. Of course people are going to come out in mass over that stuff, no matter what side they are on, but no one comes out for the little things, it doesn't happen. Because in reality no one listens to the fans. They all say they do, but it mostly goes in one ear and out the other.

[Broken Kid]

we were simply saying that the current design is inferior to the previous design, and vastly inferior to some other things that we proposed. I believed that then, and I stand by it now.

So far, this is the first comment I've heard that says the previous design was superior. I'm guessing you're referring to those fans of HSA who enjoyed having their own forum. As I mentioned, there was not enough people using that section of the forum to justify it. Why call out HSA versus other stories? The solution would be to either give every series its own forum (which is impractical and would result in a lot of inactive forums) or combine them.

What you had before was everything but HSA and itscassie combined in one forum. That clearly wasn't ideal. New postings about new videos were quickly lost, making many filmmakers (as immortal said) stop making movies. Why bother if no one sees them? The new format gives every video equal footing, and that's great. That's what the Creators had in mind, and it's far superior even to the few videos that can be seen as replies on the main page of LG15 (although a redesign of that is coming as well).

I want to reiterate that there is one active ARG right now - Facility J. And it's in a lull. Creating a section for ARGs is not the solution people are asking for. Rather, they're asking for Facility J to have its own section. We are asking you to try the new organization for a bit. Rather than claim it won't work when the ARG is in a lull, why not try it for a bit? It's really really easy to find threads: You look in two forums (New Releases and In-Depth Discussion), and all the pertinent threads should start with Facility J. In that manner, it's far easier than the previous system, which had a hodge-podge of naming. (And if there are any older threads that still need to be renamed, let us know.) None of the Facility J threads are in Archive, so you don't even have to look there.

Again, I appreciate everyone's strong feelings about this. It shows that folks care, and that's great. I'm just saying before Facility J gets its own section, we need to see it getting a lot of use. Maybe it will deserve it, maybe not. At this point, we think the new system will work just fine. Give it a chance.

[trainer101]

Guess I did a crappy job of explaining.

Having a video thread in 2 sections for the SAME video is asinine.

Not 2 threads. One thread in "In Depth" with an announcement in "New Releases". People naturally go to "New Releases" to check for new videos. The idea is to drive potential ARG players to the appropriate section. Without that post, many people won't even know. Regular players already know that game discussion is in "In Depth".

It would be much better if the "In depth" section was just the ARG section and everything for any ARG was put in there, rather then starting a video thread in one section just to move it to another section. How crazy is that?? That has to be one of the worst suggestions I've heard around here.

Again, "In Depth" IS the ARG section. ALL discussion should be kept in that section.

Oh and trainer, facility j wont get a bigger following with this system on the forum. Even someone on this thread said she wont be able to join any fan fic arg because everything is all over the place. She's not going to be the only one. I'm ready to walk away, and I have given it a chance. I know I'm not the only one that is ready to walk away or that is stepping back a lot from the ARG.

OpAphid grew a very large following without it's own section. True, it grew even more once 'canonized', but it became established under the old system - "lost" among the other threads.

Again, there is no reason to search multiple sections. ALL ARG discussion should be in "In Depth". I merely posted the idea of announcing the new vids in "New Releases" so more people could find the game. Hope I did a better job of explaining this time.

[Luminous]

Functionally using the thread directory works as if the threads were all in the same section.

Actually, it doesn't. I will repeat myself, with a thread directory, someone has to manually create what would be automatically generated by the forum. IMO, it's ridiculous to require the ARGs to compensate manually for poor forum organization.

The links were already being maintained in the lgpedia. If you're already adding a link to the lgpedia is it really hardship to add the same link to the thread directory? Doesn't matter-Trainer has volunteered to do it so no one is being required to do anything.

If you will refer to the history page of the LGpedia, you will notice that I am the person who built and maintained the link list. I know where of I speak. I built it as a temporary bandaid, to help keep the game organized, because people were not able to make sense out of the game, the way it was organized in the fan section. Myself and others talked to Trainer, and asked for our own section. He told us a change was in the works, and to sit tight. Unfortunately, this change has made the situation worse, not better. I'm grateful to Trainer, who already is a very busy mod, that he is willing to step up to manually maintain a list, that that shouldn't have to be maintained if the forum was properly organized to support the ARGs. I'm no longer willing to spend my time compensating for inadequate forum management - is this really what Trainer, as a moderator should be required to do? and is this what every ARG that wants to get off the ground should do? I just don't see it as a workable longterm solution.

In fact, it's probably better because they are categorized and sorted by date. If all the threads were in the same section they would move up and down the list according to the date of the last post.

Actually, again, no. It is far better to have the links move up an down according to where the active conversation is. Otherwise you have to go searching through all the links to figure out what the hot topic is. It is not always chronological. Many times older threads become reactivated as new information is revealed. In a forum, when this happens the link will automatically float to the top. In manual thread organization, someone must actually move it, which is what I have been doing in the Jpedia since it's existence. This requires quite a bit of attention that could be better spent making entries to the LGpedia that are more substantive.

But isn't the purpose for an historical perspective? So that new people can catch up and jump in? You usually start that at the beginning and not the most recent happening. So for the user and that intended purpose, it functions better. Besides now you have both-how is that bad? [/quote]

The historical perspective should be, and is being built as, a narrative in the LGpedia. Having it presented through links is confusing to new players who have to open up and read every thread. That is a temporary solution to presenting the game history until someone has the time to write a full narrative summary of the game to date, and continute adding to it. I was in the process of doing that, until the forum got re-organized, and I had to drop everything to start reorganizing the links that got broken - Work I had already done once, and now I had to go back and repeat it.

I noticed the Facility J has a cleaner user more user friendly look to it.

If you note the discussion thread on the back of the main page, you will notice these are changes that have been in the works for quite some time. What people who are not involved in editing the LGpedia don't seem to understand, is that it is a considerable amount of work that unfolds over time. It doesn't happen overnight. The good thing that is occuring out of this problem with the fanfic reordering, is that our little group of players are banding together to protect our game from this threat to its demise.

Actually I've done a lot of lgpedia work and don't find it labor intensive but that's just me. That's a little melodramatic don't you think? These changes weren't made to harm anyone and I don't agree that they put your game under threat. These changes also weren't made without the Creators approval. I'm sure they are aware of what's going on and how it's being handled and would step in if you were being hindered from trying to do what you want to do. [/quote]

Let's examine what it takes just to build a video recap page. First, I had to search the LGpedia to find a template then copy and paste it into the Jpedia Then I had to adapt it for our purposes. Each video page has a transcript, Title, Description, Tags etc. Ever transcribed a video? It's alot of work. Then there needs to be a Screen cap of the video. The process for producing that is to find the video, print screen bring it into a photo program where it is cropped and sized, then uploaded the the LGpedia and the link placed in the page.

Fortunately, once I had the transcripts written, and the template built, Blahblablee was willing to step up to build each individual page and drop all the data into them, later, I went back and dropped in the screen caps ( I described the procedure for that above). It's been a massive project. And that's just the video recap section. Every time we need to add a page when a new video is released, it can take between 20 minutes and an hour, depending on how long the transcript is, and whether or not we run into technical difficulties that need troubleshooting in the process.

Last week some people were up and arms about how things would work and the sky didn't fall. Let's put these new changes into practice for a week and see how it goes.

In case you hadn't noticed, we're still up in arms.

But look around, no one else is.

Plenty of people are still ining, believe me. They just aren't bothering to do it on the forum. They're going out proactively, and looking for solutions like setting up their own forums offsite, because they feel that it's useless to try to change things here. The decision has been meeted out and it's going to be what it is. That's the word from the top. I don't expect anything to change either, I've already been told in no uncertain terms they won't. I'm simply stating my perspective for the record.

You think the mods are sitting on a ton of PMs from people complaining they can't follow FacilityJ now and just aren't doing anything about it?

I think facility J fans have been pretty vocal that this isn't a positive change for our ARG.

Cassie fans aren't complaining, vid makers aren't complaining, actually other than this, to my knowledge, no one is. I think we've all tried very hard to work within the structure to accomodate you. What more do you want? The In Depth section only has primarily FacilityJ, itscassie and HSA threads. Do you have a problem sharing the section with them?

Yes, I would like to see a section devoted exclusively to ARGs, with a General section for smaller args, and as they grow, each ARG having it's own section the way HSA, Cassie and OpAphid have had. I think it is a huge disservice to HSA to have taken away their section. In addition to playing Facility J, I am also an HSA player. I don't know that I will have time to do so anymore. Because it is now going to be so challenging to follow an ARG, I don't know that I will have time to both play Facility J and keep up with HSA. This is forcing me to narrow my field of involvement. It is not encouraging me to expand it.

You shouldn't because according to you the most recent and important FacilityJ threads rise to the top. Trainer has said you can put New Release threads in there. Having them also in the New Release section also only benefits you. Otherwise when new people look for new vids to watch they won't even know about FacilityJ but if you want everything in the same section I say go for it.

In addition to being an ARG player, I am also a video producer. I have no complaints about the changes in regards to the videos. I don't know that it really improves things in terms of having my videos seen, but it doesn't make it any worse. I never really had a problem with the old structure in terms of organizing just the videos. And multiple times I have said I like the new developments section and the Lobby. These are definite improvements for fanfic creators.

What I am complaining about specifically relates to the organization of ARGs. They are a different animal entirely, and need to be treated differently in order for them to work. Immortal one, by reviewing our posts, I can see you clearly are not a fan of ARGs. You have stated very clearly that you don't like them. You certainly don't play them. That's fine. Bt it isn't fair to let that attitude stand in the way of working out a solution for those of us who do.

I make vids. If anyone knows your struggles it's me. Believe it or not, I'm on your side. I took a break from making vids because I felt like we weren't properly being promoted and supported. That's why I got involved in these forum changes and that's why I feel a respobsibilty to make them work for everyone but it seems you will accept nothing short of getting your own dedicated section. I can't help you with that. The mods can't help you with that. If that's the case, nothing we do or try will be good enough-you're going to have to take it up with the Creators.

There is so much more that needs to be said on this issue, but I am out of the time I have available to me this morning to respond.

[TOSG]

Now I have an issue with you TOSG. I don't appreciate how in your previous post you try to make it look like I was minimizing anyone's concerns and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth here.

TOSG in your last two posts you've portrayed me as someone who is facetious and minimizes others concerns, dismissive, close minded and has a grudge against ARG fans. I think my words and actions prove otherwise and portray you simply, as wrong.

Come on. I said that one of your remarks was facetious (which it clearly was). I asked you not to be closed-minded. And you somehow turn that into "[portraying you] as someone who is facetious and minimizes others concerns, dismissive, close minded and has a grudge against ARG fans?" It sounds like you have some serious rabbit ears about this... I have tried very hard to keep my posts about the issues at hand, and not ad hominem attacks, and I would appreciate the same consideration.

[immortal1]

The historical perspective should be, and is being built as, a narrative in the LGpedia. Having it presented through links is confusing to new players who have to open up and read every thread. That is a temporary solution to presenting the game history until someone has the time to write a full narrative summary of the game to date, and continute adding to it. I was in the process of doing that, until the forum got re-organized, and I had to drop everything to start reorganizing the links that got broken - Work I had already done once, and now I had to go back and repeat it.

So you're recapping the history in summary form and using the link as reference? That makes perfect sense.

Let's examine what it takes just to build a video recap page. First, I had to search the LGpedia to find a template then copy and paste it into the Jpedia Then I had to adapt it for our purposes. Each video page has a transcript, Title, Description, Tags etc. Ever transcribed a video? It's alot of work. Then there needs to be a Screen cap of the video. The process for producing that is to find the video, print screen bring it into a photo program where it is cropped and sized, then uploaded the the LGpedia and the link placed in the page.
...

No need to explain, I've done all that by myself. I've also had to fight people constantly trying to disprove my character and editing my work because they don't like what my story adds to the Breeniverse. I agree the transcribing is the most time consuming. I also personally feel it's the best resource for a fan vid maker to use to introduce their story to new people so I gladly put the time in.

Plenty of people are still ining, believe me. They just aren't bothering to do it on the forum. They're going out proactively, and looking for solutions like setting up their own forums offsite, because they feel that it's useless to try to change things here. The decision has been meeted out and it's going to be what it is. That's the word from the top. I don't expect anything to change either, I've already been told in no uncertain terms they won't. I'm simply stating my perspective for the record.

I think facility J fans have been pretty vocal that this isn't a positive change for our ARG.

I base my opinion on what I've read in this thread and what the mods have said they've received as feedback. My opinion very well could change if there were other information to consider but I'd need to see it.

Yes, I would like to see a section devoted exclusively to ARGs, with a General section for smaller args, and as they grow, each ARG having it's own section the way HSA, Cassie and OpAphid have had. I think it is a huge disservice to HSA to have taken away their section. In addition to playing Facility J, I am also an HSA player. I don't know that I will have time to do so anymore. Because it is now going to be so challenging to follow an ARG, I don't know that I will have time to both play Facility J and keep up with HSA. This is forcing me to narrow my field of involvement. It is not encouraging me to expand it.

As I see it the Mods are saying individual ARGs can't have their own section right now because the forum traffic doesn't warrant it and you're saying that ARGs can't grow because the forum structure doesn't support the growth. It's a Catch-22. I think there needs to be a firm policy for any fan creation to get it's own section. Whether that includes subscribers, view or forum traffic, that's not for me to decide. But maybe a way to establish this policy, at least for the ARG side of things, is for FacilityJ to get their own section. Watermarks would be established for future Fan ARGs to meet. That would be a huge responsiblity though because if FacilityJ didn't grow substantially under the best circumstances no future Fan ARGs at the level FacilityJ is now currently at would ever get their own section. I think that's worth finding out.

What I am complaining about specifically relates to the organization of ARGs. They are a different animal entirely, and need to be treated differently in order for them to work. Immortal one, by reviewing our posts, I can see you clearly are not a fan of ARGs. You have stated very clearly that you don't like them. You certainly don't play them. That's fine. Bt it isn't fair to let that attitude stand in the way of working out a solution for those of us who do.

Lum- when you make an accusation like this, I sure hope you are ready to back it up. I have never stated that I don't like ARGs. I invite you to show me where I have. I'll refer you also to my very first post in this thread:

Everyone who goes to the trouble to make something should have an equal opportunity to be seen. If you take a look at the official lg15 forum sections there is a "Mysteries in Plot" section and a "OpAphid: The Official LG15 Alternate Reality Game" section. I can see making a separation based on that. So maybe there should be a fan created ARG section. FARG?

In fact when making these changes I was hoping we could lure the Triple Knot folks back although I haven't reached out to them yet. I'd be interested to get their input. I've also done a lot of community building related things behind the scenes. Frankly I think you're portraying me as someone whose working to keep ARG down, aside from being false, is a bit of a cheap shot.

[Broken Kid]

Alright...I think folks have had their say (says?). There's obviously a lot of hard feelings because folks care quite a bit. Pretty much everyone agrees that the old structure didn't work and at least some of the new structure is a positive. I understand some don't like that HSA no longer has its own section and that Facility J wasn't given its own section. I assure you that we are open to all ideas and suggestions and eager to see this (as well as every area) of the forum reach its potential in ease of use as well as fairness to all involved.

Right now, Facility J is in a lull. If/When it heats up again, I'll be eager to see how folks discuss it in the in-depth discussion forum. If it's popular and gets a lot of traffic, I'd be very happy to see it get its own forum. The same goes for other ARGs, if they develop.

So for now, I say wait and see. Let's discuss the ongoing stories and our own ideas. And we'll see what keeps going on the site and what tweaks are needed. Thank you everyone for your feedback!

[immortal1]

Now I have an issue with you TOSG. I don't appreciate how in your previous post you try to make it look like I was minimizing anyone's concerns and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth here.

TOSG in your last two posts you've portrayed me as someone who is facetious and minimizes others concerns, dismissive, close minded and has a grudge against ARG fans. I think my words and actions prove otherwise and portray you simply, as wrong.

Come on. I said that one of your remarks was facetious (which it clearly was). I asked you not to be closed-minded. And you somehow turn that into "[portraying you] as someone who is facetious and minimizes others concerns, dismissive, close minded and has a grudge against ARG fans?" It sounds like you have some serious rabbit ears about this... I have tried very hard to keep my posts about the issues at hand, and not ad hominem attacks, and I would appreciate the same consideration.

Really? I don't think you are doing a very good job. Misinterpreting my words as to put me in a negative light is addressing the issues? You say Immortal, I don't like how you're casting this as a couple of whiners with ulterior motives, against everyone else. That couldn't be further from reality. but that's not personal?

Writer's have a certain philosophy. If someone is reading what you wrote and doesn't take it how you intended, it's not the fault of the reader it's the fault of the writer. I have no trouble expressing myself. If anyone tries to slide things between the lines it's you and you know you do.

When you say I'm being facetious and aren't grasping the reality that I fail to acknowledge your collective level of annoyance it insuinates that I am being dismissive. It also nicely deflects the fact that what I was addressing was the fact that you were wrong.

When you say I'm casting you as a couple of whiners with ulterior motives you are insinuating again that I am being dismissive and that I don't think your concerns are valid.

When you say you're boggled by the fact that I am intent on begrudging ARG fans a forum you insinuate that my stance is not only personal but is at a level to where it's not reasonable. Again-my words from earlier in the thread make both the statement and the insinuation baseless.

And now somehow I'm the one whose being oversensitive and making it personal while you're the one who has stuck to the issues? LOL

If you want to stick to the issues, I have no problem. If you want to throw a little insinuation in there- it's all good. To let you in on a little something about me, I enjoy a good battle of wits.

[TOSG]

Writer's have a certain philosophy. If someone is reading what you wrote and doesn't take it how you intended, it's not the fault of the reader it's the fault of the writer. I have no trouble expressing myself. If anyone tries to slide things between the lines it's you.

Alright - I'll bow to your superior rhetorical skills. Since you "have no trouble expressing yourself," any misunderstanding must be entirely my fault. I wish we had cleared that up earlier - I wouldn't have been nearly so presumptuous .

If you want to stick to the issues, I have no problem. If you want to throw a little insinuation in there- it's all good. To let you in on a little something about me, I enjoy a good battle of wits.

I prefer to pick on people my own size .

In all seriousness, though, I'm going to bow out of this discussion for now. No hard feelings on my end either, but I don't think that we're going to change one another's opinion, and trading barbs back and forth (which is what this has degenerated to, whether you acknowledge it or not) isn't going to accomplish anything constructive. For the record, I actually agree with you that there should be a firm, objective criterion which a fan ARG would need to meet before being granted its own section. And, I'll take BK at his word that he's open to making further changes if the need becomes clear.

[silvermoon]

Just throwing my 2 bits in, for what it's worth. I liked the old version of the fanfic section way better.

Though I didn't post there much, I was following a lot of the conversations on the multiple cassies and a couple of the other fanfic series.

It's now to the point where it's so hard to keep up with so many different sections that might have info/posts about the same video series, I've basically given up trying to keep up with the posting on any of them.

I'm still watching the vidoes, but I feel a little let down that it's so hard to keep up with the talk about them.

[Broken Kid]

It's now to the point where it's so hard to keep up with so many different sections that might have info/posts about the same video series, I've basically given up trying to keep up with the posting on any of them.

Just a reminder: There's now two threads that will have video discussions: New Releases and In-Depth Discussion. Everything is named according to video. It's really not difficult.

Edited to add: And if you want to just discuss videos, you only have one thread to look in: New Releases. That makes it even simpler!