"Off-topic" posts and moderator action

[Languorous Lass]

Out of love and respect for Kasdeja, whose attempting-to-lighten-things-up thread I stupidly jacked with a rant about the mods' editing of that very thread, , I am starting a new thread for my rant.

* * *

It appears that the moderators have begun enforcing a policy of removing posts that are supposedly "off-topic" from a particular thread.

I've got problems with this activity.

1) Nothing in the Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies section says a word about threadjacking or off-topic posts.

2) I have not seen any enforcement of an unofficial No Threadjacking policy in the past. For example, threadjacking still runs rampant over the video threads ("Jonas is soooo HAWT!" "No, DB is the HAWTEST!!!"). Same for other sections.

3) If a decision has been made within the past few days to start enforcing a No Threadjacking policy, members of the forum should be notified about it before it is enforced. That's a matter of fundamental fairness: you can't, or at least shouldn't, slam people for engaging in behavior you haven't told them is wrong.

In addition, moderators, please understand: sometimes a threadjack is a lighthearted way of dealing with the original topic.

Please, LIGHTEN UP. Let the forum deal with interpersonal conflict in its own sweet way. Don't intervene unless it's ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to avoid hostilities. In the process, kindly be fair to ALL posters.

And leave good-natured threadjacks alone.

* * *

Okay, enough from me on this issue for the moment. Anybody want to talk about cherries?

[Flautapantera]

Just to clear the air a bit...

This is the Concerns and Complaints area of the Forum and, as such, is set forth to house questions and issues dealing specifically with LG15 and LG15-related subjects. The FERP states:

"General Discussion is sort of a catch-all. Use the Suggestions, Concerns and Complaints, and other areas to talk about the LG15 phenomenon. If you want to meet other LG15 fans, visit the Get to Know Each Other forum. If you want to chat about anything non-LG15 related, try Off the Cuff. Please remember that fans of all ages read these forums, so the issues of appropriate content mentioned above still apply in these areas. They are not free-for-alls!"

Therefore, the act by the moderators in weeding out the silly off-topic posts in justified. I hope this helps, Lass. This by no means was meant to come across in a harsh way...just to sorta prove a point.

*skips back on topic*

EDIT: Also, this isn't a very "new" or recent mod issue. It's been an unofficial notion that Off the Cuff is where orphan posts and threads go. Many times posts have been split off from the Video section to make way for pertinent discussion.

It's also much easier for mods, admin, and the Creators to sift through the concerns of the members of the LG15 Forum community if so-called unimportant threads and topics are removed.

[Killthesmiley]

well lass...i'm going to have to some what agree with you and some what disagree...

with that specific thread that you are ranting about, Kas stated very clear, that she was dead serious and wanted her thread to be taken serious...but we weren't we were goofing off and joking around, hence movement, which does soley belong in the off the cuff section.

while policies and rules may not state it, each forum has its own set of rules, stated as a sticky (usually called what to discuss here OR the forum's name). In those rule/guideline/discription it says exsatly what belongs in that forum. NOW, while sometimes, sure hijacking is a great way to disarm people, stop flaming, etc. specificly, I know from experience, goofing off is a huge no-no in this section. It's not because we don't like it 100%, it's because it's meant to be a soley serious place to discuss the concerns or problems we have with the forum/show/site without the threat of ridicule or flaming (while...this is probably the #1 spot to get flamed). It's soley for concerns and complaints for the moderators and creators and serious discussion about said topics, just like in the spam area you wouldn't goof off, like Evan so specially did once, and got his thread deleted soley because that forum does no serve that purpose.

I lurves you Lass, but understand, sometimes goofing off like that is jsut not welcomed in certain places. That is why off the cuff, pmonkey's play hosue and get to know each other were created. Thats why we have so many subforums. So we can stay in topic in the designated areas.

(edited to add a bit)

[Killthesmiley]

holy crap I'm eating my words, because this forum doesn't have one of those stickies...

...well...all the other forums do... i think

[Languorous Lass]

Just to clear the air a bit...

This is the Concerns and Complaints area of the Forum and, as such, is set forth to house questions and issues dealing specifically with LG15 and LG15-related subjects. The FERP states:

"General Discussion is sort of a catch-all. Use the Suggestions, Concerns and Complaints, and other areas to talk about the LG15 phenomenon. If you want to meet other LG15 fans, visit the Get to Know Each Other forum. If you want to chat about anything non-LG15 related, try Off the Cuff.

Okay, I'm confused, FP. Are you saying that this thread should not be in Concerns and Complaints? Because if so, I'm completely discombobulated. I think this thread belongs here because I have a concern/complaint about the way the LG15 forum is being moderated -- not about how Nancy Pelosi is running the House of Representatives, which I agree belongs in Off the Cuff.

If you're saying that discussions within threads need to be moved to Off the Cuff, I'm also discombobulated. How are we supposed to do that? "Hey, I know that the discussion about sex with dolphins originated here in this thread, but I suggest we all get up out of our metaphorical seats and begin again in Off the Cuff"? I know I'm sounding a bit smartass here, and I apologize for that, but this is a serious question.

I have definitely seen topics split off from threads when both the original discussion and the branch-off, if you will, are separate topics both related to LG15. And I've got no problem with that.

But who's to decide when a playful side discussion has gone too far afield? And how are we supposed to be able to guess? I know that I post affectionately snarky comments in the "Mysteries in the Plot" area when people spend what I think is too much time drooling over the physical attributes of Jackson vs. Yousef. But if I were a mod, would I have the right to declare, "Okay, this is OT," and yank the whole discussion into Off the Cuff?

Kelly, I've noticed the FERP stickies in various sections, but I haven't noticed the "What to Talk About Here" stickies you mentioned, so I took a quick tour. Those stickies appear in the "Welcome to LG15" area, in Plot Discussion and Videos, in P.Monkey's Playhouse, and in the Cassie section. And that's it, except that Off the Cuff has a sticky that says we can talk about whatever we want there.

So in light of all this, it sounds like it might be time to revise the rules, policies, and stickies once again, to make them clearer. We can't play nicely together if we don't all know the rules of the game.

[ApotheosisAZ]

LL, I'd like to try to help clarify this issue as well. Please don't take this personally, but in your original post you stated:

1) Nothing in the Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies section says a word about threadjacking or off-topic posts.

I suggest you look again. Toward the end of the Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies section, BK included the following:

Enforcement of These Rules
Most people already stick to these rules/policies, but on occasion you will see someone who is posting off-topic, aggressively, offensively, or even posting spam.

It goes on with helpful suggestions with what forum users might wish to do when they notice such posts.

It then ends with BK asking for any suggestions to be added in a post at the end of the Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies section.

I hope this helps clear up the matter.

[Flautapantera]

Okay, I'm confused, FP. Are you saying that this thread should not be in Concerns and Complaints? Because if so, I'm completely discombobulated.

Heh, nope. I should have worded my initial response differently. Your thread is totally justified to be here! I was speaking in generalities of off-topic posts.

If you're saying that discussions within threads need to be moved to Off the Cuff, I'm also discombobulated. How are we supposed to do that? "Hey, I know that the discussion about sex with dolphins originated here in this thread, but I suggest we all get up out of our metaphorical seats and begin again in Off the Cuff"? I know I'm sounding a bit smartass here, and I apologize for that, but this is a serious question.

No offense taken, Lass. I understand the confusion and hassle in picking up discussions and moving them elsewhere. As you've said, there aren't clear-cut rules if a thread drifts completely off kilter; it's, to my understanding, at the mod's discretion to leave or split the topics. The whole idea of splitting out the dual conversation is to separate the thoughts so that each conversation can continue naturally without jarring topic banter. Does that make sense? Essentially, the off-topic discussion is inevitable and sometimes moving that segment of threads - especially in more imperative areas as Concerns and Complaints or Videos - eases browsing and continuation of thought.

Obviously, this is varied throughout the Forum and by personality. For instance, GTKEO threads are so random...it's impossible and unnecessary to weed out topics there.

So in light of all this, it sounds like it might be time to revise the rules, policies, and stickies once again, to make them clearer. We can't play nicely together if we don't all know the rules of the game.

I do agree that some revisions and amendments need to be made. I'll start a thread in Suggestions soon so that we can compile what we feel should or shouldn't be included in the FERP. [Note: if I make this thread, everyone please be aware that all ideas will be taken into consideration; however, not all will be instated.]

I hope this helps, Lass. Thanks for taking such an even tone with your complaint. I'm very appreciative!

[Flautapantera]

It then ends with BK asking for any suggestions to be added in a post at the end of the Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies section.

I hope this helps clear up the matter.

Nice catch, Apo. But as there are multiple FERP threads, perhaps a single "idea" thread would be helpful in Suggestions? I don't know.

[ApotheosisAZ]

I don't know, FP. I assume that BK had a reason for adding that. Perhaps he intended to remove the suggestions as he incorporated them into the FERP?

I think a thread in the suggestion area might be a better way.

[Languorous Lass]

I suggest you look again. Toward the end of the Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies section, BK included the following:

Enforcement of These Rules
Most people already stick to these rules/policies, but on occasion you will see someone who is posting off-topic, aggressively, offensively, or even posting spam.

It goes on with helpful suggestions with what forum users might wish to do when they notice such posts.

Apo, I see what you're saying, but I didn't read that statement as a rule. I was looking at the bolded headings in the earlier part of the same post ("Be Friendly," "Swearing," "Mature Content," et al.) as constituting the list of rules. The closest thing to "No threadjacking" in that list is "Post Productively," which simply asks users to "think twice before posting a message to make sure you’re sharing something that people need to hear!" (And that bright and cheery statement isn't followed by the warning "Or else.")

My interpretation of the statement you're quoting is reinforced by the fact that the statement is under the heading "Enforcement of These Rules" -- which to me means "the rules that we listed in the paragraphs before this one."

Plus there's no mention of moving posts that are considered off-topic. What the "Enforcement" section does say is

If you are one of these users, you will be warned about your actions and your post will be deleted if it is deemed inappropriate. Depending on the level of offense, you will be given warnings. Repeat offenders may be banned, and no one wants that!

I don't consider off-topic posts, or threadjacking, to justify deletion, warnings, or banning. So I didn't think that the very brief mention-in-passing of off-topic posts constituted a warning not to go off-topic.

I'm not pointing these things out to quibble, just to note that a forumite could read the rules in good faith and still miss any suggestion that threadjacking or off-topic discussion could result in having entire sections of a thread moved. If that is in fact the policy on this board, I think that a clearer statement of that policy needs to be made, so everyone understands it.

[Broken Kid]

Lass, since you didn't contact me with questions about this issue, I'm a bit confused. You raised this now in three separate threads, and I replied once and Apo replied once. Edit: You mentioned it in four threads.

While it's true that some threads are allowed to go off-topic, the moderators are typically watching for discussion related to LG15, and if they find that a serious discussion is going off-topic, they are instructed to either steer the conversation back on topic or split off the off-topic information. By contrast, if a discussion of Jonas' sexual preference goes off-topic, it does not typically bear the same constraints, as it is not generally handled in the same serious manner. Every topic of discussion is different, and it's up to the moderators how to handle it. If an off-topic discussion gets in the way of an important conversation, the moderators will take action.

Often, an off-topic conversation will take a thread in a significantly detrimental direction. If it's leading to flaming or similarly non-constructive discussion, better to split it off or close it off. If it's good natured and light-hearted and not interfering with the main topic of the thread, it's very seldom touched.

This all meets with the moderator guidelines and the forum rules and policies. I hope that helps, but feel free to contact me if you're unclear still.

[Languorous Lass]

BK, I consider this topic to be separate from the one I raised in the other threads (except for Kas's thread, the one about which I apologized above -- that's the one that sparked this thread).

In the two threads I think you're referring to, I was talking about posts that disagreed with the position taken by the original poster, but were on the same topic.

Here, I'm talking about posts that are definitely off-topic, but that don't seem -- to me, at least -- to justify moderator action.

EDITED TO ADD: If the mods have been instructed to take the kinds of actions you mention, I think it's important for that information to be placed in the FERP messages.

[Broken Kid]

BK, I consider this topic to be separate from the one I raised in the other threads (except for Kas's thread, the one about which I apologized above -- that's the one that sparked this thread).

I apologize if I misunderstood.

Here, I'm talking about posts that are definitely off-topic, but that don't seem -- to me, at least -- to justify moderator action.

EDITED TO ADD: If the mods have been instructed to take the kinds of actions you mention, I think it's important for that information to be placed in the FERP messages.

The Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies govern discussion for regular users. I don't quite see how it doesn't apply, but I'll review it and see if there needs to be a specific mention to stay on topic.

However, moderator guidelines are not included in this section and are not going to be shared with regular users. To this point, however, I don't see any major problems with moderator actions other than, perhaps, one thread erroneously moved to the Rubbish Bin.

[Languorous Lass]

The Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies govern discussion for regular users. I don't quite see how it doesn't apply, but I'll review it and see if there needs to be a specific mention to stay on topic.

Please consider me to represent those clueless readers who completely missed the stay-on-topic hints in the current language of the FERP.

However, moderator guidelines are not included in this section and are not going to be shared with regular users.

Fair enough.

To this point, however, I don't see any major problems with moderator actions other than, perhaps, one thread erroneously moved to the Rubbish Bin.

I acknowledge that the mod actions I'm complaining about here are probably not major. They've just been annoying to me -- especially given that I didn't expect them in a thread like Kas's.

Thank you for responding, BK, FP, and Apo.