[DISCUSSION] A new theory about the symbols

[tristan]

I can't get over the suspicion that one of these symbols has to be the symbol for OpAphid. OpAphid is a division of the order, and we don't know it's symbol - right? Pi Theta seems like a reasonable candidate; we know they are involved with bringing about Death (theta). We know they speak (pi) warnings and intimidation. Good theory? I'm kind of new at this.

definitely very possible. thinking about it though we know at best three parts of the order [and i could be wrong]. but arent they Lucy & her gang, Op, and the Watchers. so unless the Order represents a symbol as well there could be one or two [if Lucy is counted as part of Op] symbols about parts of the Order we dont know about yet

[tiltingwindward]

What we know (and I'm sorry this got so long, I'm just trying to find connections):

We have four symbols, all Greek, but which have a close relationship to their Hebrew and Phoenician counterparts. According to this theory, which I think holds some water at least, each ligature represents some portion of the Order (or some portion of OpA, because it doesn’t appear to me that all the aspects of the Order are represented here—there certainly isn’t any ligature that says “Acknowledge their Position and Help Initiate a Dialogue” to me). Keeping in mind that the name of this puzzle is Semiotics, the interpretations of the symbols should mean for us/Tachyon what they mean for the Order, and we shouldn’t have to kill ourselves figuring out the symbolism. 

Theta+Mu
8 12
Theta: a symbol of death?
Watchers—a warning of death.

Interpreting this, I see that the Watchers are tasked only with observing all that passes between the sun and the water (as Tachyon has pointed out to us), but have no active powers of their own. They are, however, associated with Thanatos, a warning of possible future judgment to come. This could explain why the Watchers we’ve seen in the story have not done anything to Bree & co., even when provoked. To those who understand their symbolism, the very presence of a Watcher is a warning that the watchee is under investigation, as it were.

Pi+Theta
16 8
Pi: a symbol of judgment?
Theta: a symbol of death

To me, this looks like the symbolic equivalent of a judge putting the black cap on his head before pronouncing the sentence.

Tau+Omicron
19 15
Tau: a symbol of life or rebirth?
Omicron: appears to have no external symbolism, due to its resemblance with the Western numeral 0. It does bear a relationship to the hieroglyphic eye, however.

I’m not really sure where to go with the interpretation on this one, except that this ligature appears to be in direct opposition to the Pi/Theta ligature. Instead of death in judgment, we get rebirth or continued life, possibly through an all-seeing eye.

Lambda+Sigma
11 18
Lambda/Gimel: a symbol of punishment (the bent rod)?
Sigma: a symbol of summation, or of deviation

When these two are combined I can easily see how we get to impulse’s interpretation of the Gatherers (if we’re using the sigma a symbol for summation). However, if we’re interpreting sigma as a symbol for deviation from the mean (more mathematical/scientific, but with a distinguished history), this ligature could also relate to a group of people whose job it is to punish those who deviate from the Order’s path…that is, people whose “Good Purity Status” has fallen below acceptable standards.

A brief comment on numerology:
The numbers listed above are each letter’s place in the Greek alphabet (Theta is the 8th letter, Mu is the 12th, Pi is the 16th). As you can see, in the first two ligatures the numbers are all divisible by 4. In the last two ligatures, the numeric place of the second letter in each ligature is divisible by 3, while the numeric place of the first letter is a prime number. I don’t know if this means anything at all; it’s just something I noticed.

(Another note: If we’re assuming that Tachyon was sent to infiltrate OpA on a fact-finding mission, this could be an important piece of information for her to have stolen. If the Order’s enemies can determine how the Order subdivides itself, they can penetrate its command structure and target its most critical points. Again, I ask: if Tachyon was supposed to retrieve this information for some group of people (Mom & Dad), why haven’t they been trying harder to get it from her? This is information that might help Bree figure out who she’s dealing with, but it seems like it would help other people a lot more.)

[McPackage]

Top Right: Sigma (Uraeus or Cobra) and Gimel (boomerang or throwing stick)

I'm not sold on that being a Gimel. I think it is a lambda tilted on its side. Here's why:

First, if it were a gimel, it'd be the only Phoenician character out of the 7 characters on the picture. Lambda would be more consistent.

Second, on the symbol we were given, the right side of the character is thicker than the left side, consistent with a lambda:



The two branches of the gimel seem to be the same thickness. The only place I've seen the upside-down-V form of that character is on the wikipedia page, though.

Third, I think we see a gimel because it is tilted. Why change it? Note that the mu is changed as well, with the center "leg" longer than the others. It wouldn't be the first time the character is slightly manipulated.

My point it, I think it is arguable that it is a gimel, and we shouldn't rule out that it may in fact be a lambda.

[impulse]

Tilting, in your summary, there is a lot of death and punishment. I'd like to think that the Order is more than that. They must be some "workers" in there, and not only cold bloodied killers.

[tiltingwindward]

impulse, that's why I don't think that these ligatures represent the whole Order...because clearly, there's something about the community that draws people in. Bree speaks quite fondly about her childhood in the Order, after all. I'm of the opinion that if these are four pillars of an organization, the organization is OpA, not the Order.

[impulse]

impulse, that's why I don't think that these ligatures represent the whole Order...because clearly, there's something about the community that draws people in. Bree speaks quite fondly about her childhood in the Order, after all. I'm of the opinion that if these are four pillars of an organization, the organization is OpA, not the Order.

hmmmm...yeah. Maybe. I get your point.

[Lurker]

We have four symbols, all Greek, but which have a close relationship to their Hebrew and Phoenician counterparts. According to this theory, which I think holds some water at least, each ligature represents some portion of the Order (or some portion of OpA, because it doesn’t appear to me that all the aspects of the Order are represented here—there certainly isn’t any ligature that says “Acknowledge their Position and Help Initiate a Dialogue” to me).

I think it's meant to represent different sections of the Order as a whole instead of just OpAPHID. There's four symbols here and five purposes in OpAPHID (Analyze, Protect, Hinder, Infiltrate, Destroy). Though, I suppose that one division of OpAPHID could handle two of these. The Watchers do "Analyze," and whoever shot Bree's dad could "Destroy." Gemma "Infiltrated."

Not sure about Hinder and Protect. They may overlap, but I'm not sure of a possible example for them (and why any of the other divisions wouldn't be capapble of doing these; if one could "Destroy," they should be able to "Hinder" or "Protect," and if they could "Infiltrate" they should also be able to "Hinder").

Theta+Mu
8 12
Theta: a symbol of death?
Watchers—a warning of death.

Interpreting this, I see that the Watchers are tasked only with observing all that passes between the sun and the water (as Tachyon has pointed out to us), but have no active powers of their own. They are, however, associated with Thanatos, a warning of possible future judgment to come. This could explain why the Watchers we’ve seen in the story have not done anything to Bree & co., even when provoked. To those who understand their symbolism, the very presence of a Watcher is a warning that the watchee is under investigation, as it were.

Pi+Theta
16 8
Pi: a symbol of judgment?
Theta: a symbol of death

To me, this looks like the symbolic equivalent of a judge putting the black cap on his head before pronouncing the sentence.

The Theta being related to death may be significant, but since we know that in the Watcher symbol its symbolism is more with regard to the sun (so that the Watchers are said to watch over all between the sea and the sky), I think we shouldn't necessarily rule out that there's still a similar thing going on in the Pi+Theta symbol.

Also, as tigerlilylynn pointed out, the use of Pi for a plaintiff in legal shorthand is a somewhat modern choice. It doesn't really seem to fit the older stuff.


I still think we should further investigate the possibility of the codex/textual interpretation side of Pi, which is certainly older. I think that - assuming the literal symbology from Theta+Mu wasn't just a one-time thing - it's indicating that we should considering something under the sun. I think - based on the style of these symbols suggested by Theta+Mu - it makes most sense that the Theta+Pi means something about "interpreting all that is under the sun," and that these guys are the religious/ethical part of the Order who dictate meaning.

Unless, of course, these four symbols are just for parts of OpAphid, in which case it probably means something else.

[Magesa]

Perhaps these four branches deal explicitly with the ceremony? They choose the girls, train them, watch them, and then execute the ceremony (which may involve killing or impregnating them).

I'm no expert on the symbols, but I do like the idea of a branch which judges/interprets everything. It may judge which girls do the ceremony, what "purity" and "free will" is, and make all sorts of decisions about how to run the community, etc. One branch watches everything, one branch judges it. I have no idea which symbols that would be, possibly Pi+Theta?

I'm thinking something almost like our branches of government: One makes the laws, one executes them, one judges them. And the last branch could be the Watchers.

I'm probably hopelessly off the mark, because I'm not really considering the symbols, and I haven't really helped with these puzzles much, but I thought I'd post this anyway.

I'm amazed at the vast amounts of information you amass here. Wow! Great job guys!

[tiltingwindward]

I think it's meant to represent different sections of the Order as a whole instead of just OpAPHID. There's four symbols here and five purposes in OpAPHID (Analyze, Protect, Hinder, Infiltrate, Destroy). Though, I suppose that one division of OpAPHID could handle two of these. The Watchers do "Analyze," and whoever shot Bree's dad could "Destroy." Gemma "Infiltrated."

Not sure about Hinder and Protect.

I'm not sure that the different branches can be broken up so easily (I don't think OpA has a Hinder Dept., a Protection Dept., etc.). It makes more sense that the APHID acronym is a guiding principle or mission statement which all the branches follow in their individual pursuits. Nevertheless, it makes sense that some branches focus more on some aspects of APHID than the others, as you have pointed out.

The Theta being related to death may be significant, but since we know that in the Watcher symbol its symbolism is more with regard to the sun (so that the Watchers are said to watch over all between the sea and the sky), I think we shouldn't necessarily rule out that there's still a similar thing going on in the Pi+Theta symbol.

Given Tachyon's note, I think that we should always consider Theta as a symbol with two meanings: the sun, or the breadth of the Order's/OpA's reach, and death, or its connection to death.

Also, as tigerlilylynn pointed out, the use of Pi for a plaintiff in legal shorthand is a somewhat modern choice. It doesn't really seem to fit the older stuff.

I wasn't using the interpretation of Pi as a plaintiff, because I agree entirely that we should look at the older meanings. I was using Pi as the symbol for the speaking mouth, which in many cultures is used anciently in connection with the speaking of a judgment.

(I'm sorry that I always seem to taking your posts apart piece by piece, Lurker. It just means that you always have good points I want to discuss individually. )

[tenshiakui]

*slinks from the shadows*

An interesting website about Pi and the Egypt. I'm going through some of it now and figured others may want to have a look to see if there is something of note for here.

http://www.aloha.net/~johnboy/pi.htg/pi.htm
*fades to black*

[tristan]

tilting, what about the Tau being a symbol for a mark and not a symbol of resurrection

otherwise great job, i really like the numerology note too - i have a feeling numerology is gonna work itself in there somehow

[tiltingwindward]

Tristan, you mean Tau as a symbol for a signature? I suppose it could be that, but then I don't see how that ligature makes any sense at all. To me, Tau as a symbol for life (and I've seen that elsewhere, not just in Catholicism) is more consistent with the rest of the ligatures. But if you have an alternate interpretation of that ligature, I'd love to hear it. It was the one that puzzled me the most.

[tristan]

i was thinking Tau as mark and Omicron as eye so the ligature would be someone who identifies the mark...or someone who decides who the choosen ones are [like Bree and Tach's sister]

[Languorous Lass]

Anybody think that this theory makes any sense in light of the contents of the note?

That's very CiW

No, actually, I've never even seen a CiW vid.

The theory was totally based on the contents of the main vids and the hints contained therein concerning Egyptian religion.

I'd appreciate it if the folks here would actually look and see what I said before rejecting the theory outright.

[tiltingwindward]

I don't think anyone was rejecting your thoughts, Languorous Lass. I think Tiger was just commenting that that theory was very reminiscent of CiW. Personally, I'm not sure that human sacrifice will ever be a part of this series, but it's possible that a metaphysical sacrifice could occur, rather than a physical one.