whats in a name

Nieriel.Manwathiel · Post by **Nieriel.Manwathiel** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:11 am

PinkoLady wrote:The satan of course, means "adversary," (and not "ultimate abyss of evil" or whathaveyou)-- which would be fitting for Lucy, and the giant grey area that is the Order.

....so, you're saying her real name is Stan?

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:48 am

longlostposter wrote:
Balmung wrote:elaborate -- i understand that lucifer translates to bringer of light (lucius mean roughly the same thing), but i always thought that it was because satan was God's right hand man before he betrayed him.
That is correct.

The word Satan (i.e. Lucifer) means "the accuser" in Hebrew; while devil is "tempter".

As I've learned it, the Satan is "the adversary" which is a slight, but fairly meaninful difference from "accuser." This is usually found in context in the Book of Job.

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:50 am

Nieriel.Manwathiel wrote:
PinkoLady wrote:The satan of course, means "adversary," (and not "ultimate abyss of evil" or whathaveyou)-- which would be fitting for Lucy, and the giant grey area that is the Order.
....so, you're saying her real name is Stan?

Doesn't she totally look like a Stan??

Nieriel.Manwathiel · Post by **Nieriel.Manwathiel** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:26 pm

PinkoLady wrote:
Nieriel.Manwathiel wrote:
PinkoLady wrote:The satan of course, means "adversary," (and not "ultimate abyss of evil" or whathaveyou)-- which would be fitting for Lucy, and the giant grey area that is the Order.
....so, you're saying her real name is Stan?
Doesn't she totally look like a Stan??

for some reason, that reminds me of the old guy pedophile on Family Guy, Herbert, aka Herbert the Pervert. X-D

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:33 pm

"Guess who? Sorry to leave you so many messages. Just lonely here. Thinkin' about the muscly-armed paperboy. Wishin' he'd come by and bring me some good news."

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:37 pm

Balmung wrote:elaborate -- i understand that lucifer translates to bringer of light (lucius mean roughly the same thing), but i always thought that it was because satan was God's right hand man before he betrayed him.

Sorry that I wasn't clear before. My point is that "Lucifer" was never a name for an angel in the Bible. As a noun, "Lucifer" was just a name for the planet Venus in ancient times. Ironically, it was actually also used as an adjective/title for Jesus within the Bible. However, common translations (the King James Version is a perfect example) kept the reference to Venus as "Lucifer" in English and translated the word to "morning star" when it was used in reference to Jesus.

Hilarity ensued.

This should explain the misunderstanding better than I could.

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:59 pm

Lurker wrote: Sorry that I wasn't clear before. My point is that "Lucifer" was never a name for an angel in the Bible. As a noun, "Lucifer" was just a name for the planet Venus in ancient times. Ironically, it was actually also used as an adjective/title for Jesus within the Bible. However, common translations (the King James Version is a perfect example) kept the reference to Venus as "Lucifer" in English and translated the word to "morning star" when it was used in reference to Jesus.

OK, Lurker. While I'm a Christian, I've been looking at some of the ways the Roman Catholics took liberties with scripture. One of the things I'm looking at is the fact that the Hebrew words for the Holy Spirit actually connotate femininity; thus giving God a feminine aspect (not the Christian traditional one that God is all male in character).

If you are Roman Catholic, this is not meant to be an insult toward you, unless you are one of the ones who played around with the scriptures way back when. <smile>

Misty · Post by **Misty** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:22 pm

Lurker wrote:
Balmung wrote:elaborate -- i understand that lucifer translates to bringer of light (lucius mean roughly the same thing), but i always thought that it was because satan was God's right hand man before he betrayed him.
Sorry that I wasn't clear before. My point is that "Lucifer" was never a name for an angel in the Bible. As a noun, "Lucifer" was just a name for the planet Venus in ancient times. Ironically, it was actually also used as an adjective/title for Jesus within the Bible. However, common translations (the King James Version is a perfect example) kept the reference to Venus as "Lucifer" in English and translated the word to "morning star" when it was used in reference to Jesus.

Hilarity ensued.

This should explain the misunderstanding better than I could.

Ok, I asked my dad about that Isaiah 14 thing. (He went to a Bible College) He told me the chapter was about the king of Tyre, and that the Hebrew just said Helel the son of Shakhar. Hellil which means "Praised"or "Shining one" and Shakhar which means "Daybreak" both would be considered normal names for Tyrian kings. The chapter has nothing to do with the planet venus or satan.

He also told me that the name lucifer was a mistranslation, but still had nothing to do with satan, and that satan means "accuser" and NOT "adversary".

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:26 pm

Misty wrote: He also told me that the name lucifer was a mistranslation, but still had nothing to do with satan, and that satan means "accuser" and NOT "adversary".

Exactly. From the Hebrew, it is "accuser".

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:29 pm

longlostposter wrote:OK, Lurker. While I'm a Christian, I've been looking at some of the ways the Roman Catholics took liberties with scripture. One of the things I'm looking at is the fact that the Hebrew words for the Holy Spirit actually connotate femininity; thus giving God a feminine aspect (not the Christian traditional one that God is all male in character).

This subject is of great interest to me, but I'm unfamiliar with that particular translation issue. Could you PM me more on that, please?

longlostposter wrote:If you are Roman Catholic, this is not meant to be an insult toward you, unless you are one of the ones who played around with the scriptures way back when.

No offense taken here. I'm not Catholic (or Christian at all). Dr. Faustus probably fits the bill closer than I.

Misty wrote:Ok, I asked my dad about that Isaiah 14 thing. (He went to a Bible College) He told me the chapter was about the king of Tyre, and that the Hebrew just said Helel the son of Shakhar. Hellil which means "Praised"or "Shining one" and Shakhar which means "Daybreak" both would be considered normal names for Tyrian kings. The chapter has nothing to do with the planet venus or satan.

Thanks. Your dad would probably know better than either of us, but what do you think happened here? "Helel" would have been in Hebrew, right (like the Old Testament itself)? So who changed it to the Latin "Lucifer," which was a common name for Venus at the time, and why? Was that done after the New Testament scriptures and their use of "morning star" came along?

Either way in Isaiah 14 it's a metaphor concerning the fall of Babylonian rulers, right?

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:59 pm

Misty wrote: He also told me that the name lucifer was a mistranslation, but still had nothing to do with satan, and that satan means "accuser" and NOT "adversary".

I was told this was a misconception by a Jewish Studies/Hebrew Prof-- satan was never a proper noun, and it was used in different cases to mean "the opposer" or "adversary," again, as in the book of Job. The guy speaks Hebrew and is Jewish.

I suppose he could have been wrong, but... I doubt it.

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:04 pm

Note: The difference between "accuser" and "adversary" may not be that significant at all-- they may just vary in context of use. He sticks by adversary because he looks at the satan only in the context of the old testament-- the satan, or Lucifer, was a much different thing in the new testament.

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:21 pm

PinkoLady wrote:Note: The difference between "accuser" and "adversary" may not be that significant at all-- they may just vary in context of use. He sticks by adversary because he looks at the satan only in the context of the old testament-- the satan, or Lucifer, was a much different thing in the new testament.

Interesting pinkolady.

BTW, Tristan, great topic.

About the prophet aspect: I think it must be more than a coincidence that so many names are prophectic in terms of the Bible. Perhaps it's simply that it is meant to enforce the religious facade that was in the earlier videos.

tristan · Post by **tristan** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:50 pm

thanks for the welcomes and all. i think a problem with a topic like this is its impossible to know how far to take it. as in its possible to make the analogy between Daniel the prophet being cast into a den of lion and saved with Danielbeast being captured by the order and returning without harm [as we know so far]

also u could say jonas is possibly working for the order now but will eventually realize his wrongs and help bree in the future. like jonah being stuck in a whale then released when he repents and goes on to become a prophet

...or i could have taken this all WAY too far

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:01 pm

tristan wrote:thanks for the welcomes and all. i think a problem with a topic like this is its impossible to know how far to take it. as in its possible to make the analogy between Daniel the prophet being cast into a den of lion and saved with Danielbeast being captured by the order and returning without harm [as we know so far]

also u could say jonas is possibly working for the order now but will eventually realize his wrongs and help bree in the future. like jonah being stuck in a whale then released when he repents and goes on to become a prophet

...or i could have taken this all WAY too far

No. In fact, it's very insightful. Thanks.