Shark Jumping 101: What LG15 is STILL doing wrong

[emerrs11]

Okay so I was going to post this comment yelling Owen out of his shell but instead I will post this. Please do not tell people the negative side of what they are doing but the postive side. Instead of saying "What LG 15 is still doing wrong" you could write to the creators saying " I like your plot. It is very interesting. However in my opinion these things could be changed. (Then politely ask them howcome the Gemma plot is taking so long etc.)"

And most importantly if you don't like this plot/game/whatever go away. Nobody told you you had to be here. Okay?

Edit: To destroy the ugly smilies.

[ApotheosisAZ]

While I agree with the spirit of emerrs11's post above, I don't agree with the suggestion that anyone "go away." (Exceptions: any of my ex-wives that are lurking in here can hit the road.)

The Creators find value in reading the comments here, and they're tougher than you think. They can handle criticism.

I'm sure that emerrs11 is really trying to defend the series. That's very noble!

[emerrs11]

While I agree with the spirit of emerrs11's post above, I don't agree with the suggestion that anyone "go away." (Exceptions: any of my ex-wives that are lurking in here can hit the road.)

The Creators find value in reading the comments here, and they're tougher than you think. They can handle criticism.

I'm sure that emerrs11 is really trying to defend the series. That's very noble!

*squeals* Okay thankyou. Yeah i guess the go away thing was kinda over the top.

[gogo]

Emerrs11, I understand where you are coming from and as the long excerpt from an even longer post explains, I am a fan and do support the series and the people involved. I am glad you have decided to join this forum and post, so welcome.

There is definitely something that has drawn me to this series and keeps me involved. It is not the clues, however. It is not the ARG. It is the idea of some people presenting a story in a different way. The three men behind this series (and the crew, actors, etc.) want to be successful. And I want them to be successful, too. I don’t think I have written anything mean spirited, so I assume your remarks come from your loyalty and your support of the show. I do respect that as I am a pretty die-hard fan of this production. So instead of continuing, yet another long post, I will simply repeat myself with the hope that the remarks I share are viewed by you and others as the remarks of a supporter of the series:

I guess I find myself being a viewer who is interested less in the “clues” and more in how this experiment plays out. I support this series and find some elements quite engaging. For example, Bree had no trouble slipping into a bed with Jonas (who chose the bathtub instead), but Bree had Daniel sleep on the floor after “hooking up/smooching.” This demonstrates the complexity of this character and the fickleness of people's feelings in general, especially after facing a seriously traumatizing situation (witnessing the murder of a father). These are the kinds of elements that keep me involved.

There is space here for all sorts of ways to engage with the story. This kind of “meta-discussion” is interesting to me. I hope we can continue this kind of discussion without being accused of being Negative Nellies, Bitter Bobs or Dismissive Don(na)s. I’d like to think of myself and those interested in this kind of examination to be seen as Deconstructionist Dianas, Analyzing Abes, Supportive Stans and Interested Irenes.

It is interesting to watch this series develop in "real-time." Sorry to be so long-winded, Emerrs11.

gogo
ps. APAZ, regardless of the short length of our Vegas marriage, I'm not going anywhere.

[DreamerM]

There are plenty of places around this forum to laud the Creators, the characters, and the show in all of it's greatness. Multiple threads on multiple boards do this exact thing, and, surely, they deserve all that praise: we're here, arn't we? Discussing thier product, going on treasure hunts they send us on in the hopes that, this time, we actually will find the pot of gold.

That is not what this thread is for. I started this thread as an update of my old one, which was born of sheer frustration with the countless dramatic oppertunities the writers were throwing out like candy and desperately wanting something, ANYTHING, to happen.

Ever hear the expression "a friend is someone who knows all your faults and likes you anyway?" I like this series. Anyone who accuses me of anything else is simply wrong. However, I think humans and creators of all forms of art can learn more from constructive criticism then they can from those people who see everything they make as a work of genius.

"Love it or leave it." eh emmers? This is not a religion. I am not obligated to have faith. This is not a country. I cannot be shipped to quantanamo for disagreeing with my nation's forgien policy....

.........allegedly.

I better go, I think I hear the Homeland Security Dept. comming up my stairs.

[Lurker]

(I've just realized how long this post is and how unnecessary some of it might be, at least where the overall objective of this thread is concerned. If you'd like to skip to what are probably the only vital parts, then just go down until you see the bolded "[____]")

Okay so I was going to post this comment yelling Owen out of his shell but instead I will post this. Please do not tell people the negative side of what they are doing but the postive side.

In a world like that, nothing ever improves. Have you ever heard Hans Christian Andersen's story The Emperor's New Clothes or the phrase "the elephant in the room"? When there's something obviously wrong, you don't walk around it for the sake of "being polite," especially if it's disingenuous (being polite solely for the sake of doing so). To me that's just phony and not in any way admirable.

If anything, it's harmful. It prevents others who might share the same feelings but are concerned about admitting it from feeling like they can admit it, and it prevents whoever most needs to hear the truth from learning it and doing something to improve the situation.

Even if being excessively polite was a valid concern here, the Creators have said they want all kinds of criticism, not just the kind where someone gushes about what a great job they're doing. Miles has had a pretty long discussion with several of us in the past (including DreamerM) and expressed a lot of appreciation for the input we offered for improving the series.

I dare say the Creators even took some of our suggestions and used them for a while (I say "for a while" because disclosure of loose plot threads came to a halt a while ago).

Instead of saying "What LG 15 is still doing wrong" you could write to the creators saying " I like your plot. It is very interesting. However in my opinion these things could be changed. (Then politely ask them howcome the Gemma plot is taking so long etc.)"

DreamerM has made it known to the Creators on more than one occasion that he likes LG15 and that he appreciates what they and the rest of the production crew have done (especially when they pull off something fantastic), as have I. I include myself in this point because I've been one of the series' harshest critics from the beginning, as well as one of its most devoted fans. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

And most importantly if you don't like this plot/game/whatever go away. Nobody told you you had to be here. Okay?

Pointing out that something has a flaw does not mean you hate it. It doesn't mean you're just trying to piss on everyone else's parade. It means you're making an observation about reality. Sometimes that doesn't need to be done, but with the production of something like LG15, it does need to.

If you love someone a great deal but they're an alcoholic who's letting their addiction destroy their life (or at least prevent it from becoming better), at a certain point you need to say "Hey, I love you, but there's no dancing around it anymore. You've got a problem."


Now, with all that said, I'd like to address some of the things DreamerM had to say in his opening post:

First off, Bree's father's death was a sloppy job. The quick-camera jostling, the shot, the screaming, the get-away, the moody tribute following it, everything was so perfectly dramatic it was cliche. Sorry, but it was.

I agree that it was cliche, but sometimes things have to be. I'm not going to say that originality is dead, but I am saying that sometimes something just works better when it's doing something in a cliche manner. That doesn't mean this scene couldn't have been pulled off better, but I really don't feel that it was of poor quality.

At least not the actual death video, "The Unthinkable Happened." I thought that was well done. From the perspective of plot, the video had some nice interaction between Jonas and Daniel, it presumably allowed Bree to learn a lot of stuff (which she has irritatingly kept to herself... as always), and it presented a big development that should have told everyone who was still alive that they were really in a lousy situation and needed to start doing something about it (which they irritatingly haven't).

And, honestly, I thought the dialogue and camera work in it was good. I was as convinced that they'd made an effort with writing that dialogue well as if it had been any other video. It didn't feel like it was just there to pass the time up to the gunshot. At least not to me.

Now, the following video, "Bree's Dad Is Dead" was of poor quality. It was the painful kind of cliche, but mainly because it was extremely unbelievable. The very idea that one of them would have actually been editing a video like that (after they had apparently been passing the camera back and forth amongst themselves to film footage for it when they were supposed to be shocked and/or depressed) was completely unconvincing.

The camera work in it was great, the music was fitting, and the editing job was top notch. No doubt. I think they did a wonderful job with that. But it didn't fit the context of this series. Since they've insisted on maintaing the vlogger presentation, something like that just doesn't work. Had it been a standard film in which the characters had no knowledge of being watched it would have been terrific.


You know, I just realized that I'm not really offering anything helpful to this, and that much of what I said above is probably criticism that would have been better suited for the actual threads for those videos instead of as a response to what DreamerM had said. Oh well.

Finally we find out what the injections were. It only took, what....six months or so from the introduction of them as a plot point? Plus supposedly the symptoms Bree exibited at the time don't match the symptoms supposedly induced by the substance: apparently it's supposed to give you more energy but she kept acting sluggish. Makes me wonder if they introduced it without knowing themselves what it was.

This criticism I can agree with. It was three months and twelve days from the introduction of gauze on her arm before we learned what Bree was getting injected with, and even then it was without any apparent relevance (even to the characters; they haven't talked about it since or investigated for themselves what it might mean). At the time it seemed like we were actually getting answers, but it's become apparent since then that it was just product placement for Epogen.


Answers, by the way, is something that I want to touch on, just as robtomorrow has. Just as he's said, there are tons of old plot threads still hanging (and apparently forgotten) when new ones get introduced. Despite Killthesmiley's admirable effort, almost none of them have answers.

The only things we do have answers to are what Bree was being injected with, what the deal with Cassie is, and what happened to Gemma. And even then the plot element of Cassie wasn't wrapped up without introducing a contradiction (previously we'd been told that Cassie was freaked out by Bree's religion and stopped calling; then we were told that Cassie got Bree in trouble and Bree stopped talking to her; I suppose they may not be mutually exclusive, but the way they were presented sure looked that way).

I also have to address something else Killthesmiley suggested, which EliCash added to with a quote from Michelangelo Antonioni. We're not questioning things like "Why are they Jewish?" or asking things that are in any way unreasonable. We're asking for answers to things the creators of this series deliberately inserted to fuel speculation and suggest had meaning. As time goes on, we get less and less reason to believe we need to be speculating, as the plot point will likely be unrealistically brushed aside and never mentioned again. Heck, I haven't posted on the forum for more than a month, and I really didn't miss anything. I still watched the videos, but I didn't post in the forum, and, yet, within a couple of hours I was able to get myself up to date on everything (which wasn't much; aside from the revelation about Nikki Bower being Alli Danziger, most of what I missed was flame wars and discussion about flame wars).

Someone telling a story (which directors are doing) shouldn't throw something in without understanding for themselves why they are including it. That suggests poor planning and a poor sense of what they're doing. I'm not saying that everything down to the last tread on a tire needs to be explained. I'm talking about the obvious stuff that stands out, and was clearly given a prominent place in presentation, often even pointed out by the characters themselves (like Crowlely, Thelema, Cassie, Epogen, the break-in at the motel, ribozymes, etc.). A storyteller needs to be able to account for everything they deliberately included, and there should be more to it than "It's there to take up space." That's one of the major indicators of the divide between talent/skill and ineptitude.

And while we are greedy and want the answers, I think it's not solely for ourselves that we fear some of the answers don't exist. As I've said before, I want to see this production succeed. I want to see it become something great and memorable. I'd like to see it do something to change the face of future media. I appreciate the ambitions of the people who conceived of it, I find some of the things they've written/filmed to be brilliant, I love the actors, and I'm attached to the production itself, so I would personally like it to succeed for that reason if no other.

If, however, plot elements are revealed to have been inserted at random with no intention at the time for what they meant and little concern for resolving them, or if they still lie loose when all is said and done, I really doubt LG15 would be remembered for the things it did well. It would be remembered for what it failed to do. The actors would be remembered for what they did well, sure, and they'd go on to the bigger and better things that they deserve to be part of, but this particular production would be remembered with such phrases as "The surprise disappointment of the decade."

That's why I've stressed in the past just how important it is to have an ending in mind from the moment you begin. I'm not convinced that there was one in mind since we've heard conflicting reports over how long LG15 was intended to last (some people said six months and others said a year). I guess only the people behind the production or close to it know for sure, but I think we've seen enough evidence to suggest that they didn't have this thing planned out from the beginning:

~Daniel's romantic feelings for Bree being a product of fan suggestion

~CiW -- which was scrapped -- apparently being from those close to the Creators after all

~Gemma's character being killed off because her actor no longer had time for the series (that she could so easily be killed off on its own says there was no further intended use for -- nor significance to -- Gemma; truthfully, she was killed off without ever actually having any kind of impact on events; yeah, she brought up the terms "Watcher" and "Order," but the first hasn't really gone anywhere and the second... well, some fans had already started referring to the Order as "the Order"; what's more, had she been an intended part of things all along, one would think they might have enlisted an actor who wouldn't need to bail out)

I will say one thing though, halleluja and thank goodness: Bree has finally stopped being likeable.

Was she ever?

She's rejected her toys, she's locked herself in the bathroom, she's shapish and withdrawn, she's irritable and short-tempered. She's actually reacting to something for once, and all I can say is it's about time.

I wholeheartedly agree that it's great that she finally started showing that she has a personality. I remember that being one of our greatest criticisms in your original thread.

It's a shame, though -- and, no, this isn't a criticism of the Creators, but of the character -- that it turned out her personality is that of a total bitch. I can't believe how she's treated Daniel lately, and I especially can't believe that she still hasn't told him and Jonas anything she knows. She's been a greater help to the Order than to the people who have constantly (and still continue to) put their lives in jeopardy for her sake.

"Love it or leave it." eh emmers? This is not a religion. I am not obligated to have faith. This is not a country. I cannot be shipped to quantanamo for disagreeing with my nation's forgien policy....

It's almost adorable how naive that is.


[____]
I have to apologize to everyone for this long and meandering post. I really didn't give it any focus and just sort of went where my thoughts were taking me at the time. It probably came off looking more negative than intended at times as a result.

There's certainly some problems with the series right now, but there's been some great aspects too. The dialogue remains nice, Jonas and Daniel's interaction has been great (I've actually come to trust Jonas and like him; Daniel's still my favorite by far, but Jonas is second), the acting is superb and continues to improve, the camerawork is almost always on target, and videos are well edited.

The problems mainly are this:

~Things continue going unanswered, even when new questions are added to the stack. Worse than that , things continue going unanswered even when it's unrealistic that they would, such as with Bree hiding everything. After a certain point, most of us would have kicked her door in and forced what she knows out of her, friend or no (the fact that she's been such an evil a*****e lately would probably make this easier even as her friend)

~Generally unrealistic occurrences, like everyone pretending that the Order is gone or non-threatening, despite them seeing Bree's dad blown away right in front of them. Have they even tried to go buy a gun to defend themselves next time? Have they started doing something to try drawing the Order out and settle this? No. Nothing. Instead Bree talks about getting a job (??!!), Jonas goes to watch a movie, and Daniel goes out looking for a girl.

There's also the case like in "Cowboy," where Jonas and Bree follow Cowboy instead of look around his place when he leaves. Did they seriously not see "Following The Helper"? Do they not know how this stuff is done, despite Daniel successfully infiltrating three places before now? Or, hell, they could have tried asking him where Daniel is. Oh, and then they go back home after doing nothing more than check out the back of Cowboy's van. What the heck is that?

Also, how about OpAphid's apparent inability to realize that the car Bree and her dad were driving (which OpAphid has now taken) would provide them with all the information they'd need to figure out where Jonas' place is? They supposedly have judges, police officials, and government authorities as resources, yet they have to start triangulating areas, looking up lists of bowling alleys, and all that crap when they have one of his damn cars?

~Pacing. Good God, the pacing. I hate to say it, but it's become worse in the time since the last big discussion in DreamerM's previous thread. I think this is largely related to the issue of how unrealistic everyone's been acting (this includes Bree, Daniel, Jonas, and OpAphid, but mainly the first three)

[gogo]

squeals* Okay thankyou. Yeah i guess the go away thing was kinda over the top.

Aw, come on. Be nice, Lurker. I think Emmers11 probably did see some of the issues brought up as an attack, and I would say in light of his/her realization that telling people to go away was just a gut reaction, I say he/she probably understands now that different viewers/fans engage with the story in different ways. I do hope these kinds of discussions about the story (deconstructing the elements of the story/production) do not become a place for one-sided debates.

I would have a difficult time answering a post like the one you have above. I would feel kind of attacked. (I am just very sensitive. ) I guess if I had to respond to a post like that, I would probably get defensive, even if I agreed with some or even many of your points.

I don't want Emmers11 to go away (nor am I suggesting that you do either.) I think there is room for praising, clue-finding and total support for the story, as well as a more (de)constructive analysis of the story/production without assuming one point-of-view is better than another.

It must be difficult to create a series like this, so I hope any kind of criticism of the story can stay constructive. If the folks behind this series read these comments, I don't want them to be turned off and not really read through. Personally, I can see them balking at the things I write and say (I don't work for them; I am not part of the production; I am not a seasoned screenplay/fic-vlog/teleplay writer; I am not their friend or even a respected entity to them).

I don't want posters with ideas like those in this thread to be seen as negative, bitter people. The simplest and easiest way to react to a thread like this is with the old "If you think you're so great, why don't you make your own series." And then any ideas or suggestions will be ignored. Then frustration grows and nothing is considered by those who have the power to control this story.

Dang, Lurker, I see your long post and raise you an even longer post. I hope you understand that I agree with many of your points, as I do not want these ideas to become diluted by other issues.

Again sorry for this long post that I hope is not seen as an attack or anything. I think I wrote this long reply to be sure that my points come across in the spirit in which they were written: with a calm, supportive tone and a friendly demeanor.

gogo

[Lurker]

Aw, come on. Be nice, Lurker.

I wasn't? I don't feel like I made it a personal attack in any way. Can you explain what you mean?

I think Emmers11 probably did see some of the issues brought up as an attack, and I would say in light of his/her realization that telling people to go away was just a gut reaction, I say he/she probably understands now that different viewers/fans engage with the story in different ways.

Perhaps, but I thought it important to provide a lot of detail on why all kinds of criticism is important.

I do hope these kinds of discussions about the story (deconstructing the elements of the story/production) do not become a place for one-sided debates.

What do you mean exactly? The only way I can picture it becoming somewhat one-sided is if some users felt that there was absolutely no room for improvement in the series while others (typically the majority of fans) felt that there could be improvement. Even then, though, not everyone agrees on what needs to be improved or what should be done to improve it (take DreamerM's criticisms for example and compare with some of mine; while we both agree that the series is nowhere near perfect, we disagreed on some aspects of why that is).

I would have a difficult time answering a post like the one you have above. I would feel kind of attacked. (I am just very sensitive. ) I guess if I had to respond to a post like that, I would probably get defensive, even if I agreed with some or even many of your points.

Do you mean the parts directed toward emerss11 or the Creators?

With emerrs, I don't feel that I said anything inflammatory or insulting. If you disagree, feel free to point out what you believe may have been inappropriate. Emerrs certainly has my apologies if he/she felt wounded by anything I said.

I can see why the Creators might take issue with a few things I said, but at the same time, I hope they'll consider why I might be saying the things I said instead of focusing solely on what was said. But, as Dreamer said, they're tougher than that. They appreciate harsh criticism, even when they don't agree with it or don't see where it was coming from.

That's another thing: I'm sure the Creators and I disagree on a lot of things. Ultimately, they may well know best, and I might not have offered them anything useful. If so, that's fine. But I believe that I still see some problems with the series, and I felt that I should tell them what I think those problems are.

I certainly applaud their efforts to improve things after the discussion in Dreamer's first "jumping the shark" thread, and I believe that they did improve things for a while. It started to look like the answers would be forthcoming and everything was leading somewhere. Up through "The Unthinkable Happened," I thought they had done quite a good job of turning things around. Momentum built up, it started to look like the characters were proactive, and it seemed that the pieces were beginning to fall into place.

After that, though, I believe things have fallen apart. The series lost direction, developments stalled, realistic behavior became a luxury, plot explanations wandered off somewhere, and the main character became more annoying than ever. That's not a good combination.

I truly believe the best thing that has come out of the plot in the last month is the buddy dialogue between Jonas and Daniel. When that's the best thing you can say about a plot that had tons of things it needed to be doing, that's unfortunate. I could even look better upon the context issues with "Bree's Dad Is Dead" if the video following it ("My Dad Said...") actually was complete disclosure of everything Bree knew about the Order before and all that she had learned from her dad before he got shot. That would have been not only a realistic development, but it would have kept things engaging.

That was a perfect opportunity to keep the momentum rolling. Instead, it tapered out and hasn't moved anywhere since "The Unthinkable Happened." With Daniel kidnapped, maybe things will begin to go somewhere again. But it's going to have to be a truly important development. Something that will have direct, lasting impact on what follows. In other words, a development that will begin marching us on toward relevance. It can't be something like "Cowboy is just some random crazy guy living in the mountains who kidnapped Daniel so he could cook him."

I don't want Emmers11 to go away (nor am I suggesting that you do either.)

Of course not.

I think there is room for praising, clue-finding and total support for the story, as well as a more (de)constructive analysis of the story/production without assuming one point-of-view is better than another.

I don't think this is about that. Of course there's room for praising and being brutally honest of flaws at the same time, and I do that. There's a lot of things about the series that are great. However, for more than a month, I believe none of them have had to do with the story, and instead had to do with the production (acting, directing, and editing).

One thing I forgot to compliment the Creators on, by the way, is giving exposure to the Spy Vids more prominently than before. With Gemma dead, Brother hijacking her account and posting the videos he and Tachyon made about her was a brilliant decision. It not only made sense in the context of the story, but it guaranteed more of the exposure those videos so desperately had needed (given how relevant they had become). I may have to edit my last post and add this compliment in.

It must be difficult to create a series like this, so I hope any kind of criticism of the story can stay constructive. If the folks behind this series read these comments, I don't want them to be turned off and not really read through.

So far, I think this thread has offered constructive criticism, as in the last one. The Creators probably will read all of this. We're offering explanations for why we perceive flaws, after all, and they did read the first thread DreamerM made all the way through.

Personally, I can see them balking at the things I write and say (I don't work for them; I am not part of the production; I am not a seasoned screenplay/fic-vlog/teleplay writer; I am not their friend or even a respected entity to them).

We're the people who are going to decide if their production is a success or a failure, though, so I can't imagine that they would think it wise to ignore us. Especially since they themselves are not seasoned directors or writers.

For that matter, they really don't know who any of us are or what our backgrounds are. They don't know who's got experience in what. None of us know who the forum members are. For all we and the Creators know, you could be Stephen King or Ron Howard. After all, the sister of Epogen's creator turned out to be on here, and Katharine McPhee turned out to be a big fan. Who knows who else is a fan?

I don't want posters with ideas like those in this thread to be seen as negative, bitter people. The simplest and easiest way to react to a thread like this is with the old "If you think you're so great, why don't you make your own series." And then any ideas or suggestions will be ignored. Then frustration grows and nothing is considered by those who have the power to control this story.

There's no need to be concerned over that. As said, the Creators don't know what any of our experiences are, and they also have discussed this stuff with us before (and I seem to remember us being far more bitter last time; many of us were really frustrated back then and just about ready to give up on the whole thing).

Really, last time I think we felt the series was doomed. This time, I don't feel that way. I have felt like screaming "What were you thinking?" on a few points of missed opportunity, but I think they have the potential to turn things in a good direction. They did last time we had this discussion, and have now just fallen into another rut. It's just imperative that they know it when we think that.

I think I wrote this long reply to be sure that my points come across in the spirit in which they were written: with a calm, supportive tone and a friendly demeanor.

No worries. They did.

[Lurker]

With the coming of the "Miss Me?" video the possibility for things to go somewhere is definitely now here. I'm hoping Bree's developed now into a proactive individual who's going to make a move against her opponents. Jonas, at the least, will try something, I'm sure. He doesn't seem the type to waste away weeks in motels while hoping things will magically get better on their own.

[gogo]

There's no need to be concerned over that. As said, the Creators don't know what any of our experiences are, and they also have discussed this stuff with us before (and I seem to remember us being far more bitter last time; many of us were really frustrated back then and just about ready to give up on the whole thing).

Really, last time I think we felt the series was doomed. This time, I don't feel that way. I have felt like screaming "What were you thinking?" on a few points of missed opportunity, but I think they have the potential to turn things in a good direction. They did last time we had this discussion, and have now just fallen into another rut. It's just imperative that they know it when we think that.

I appreciate your points. Looking over what I have written in this topic and your most recent response, I must say that I do sound afraid to have people disagree or agree to disagree. Yikes! (Perhaps I should be a politician who tries to please everyone without anyone realizing it.)

I might just be too fearful of confrontations or too worried about the impression I make on others. This is not the best quality to have, I suppose. I guess if I am going to express myself on this forum, I am going to have to accept that no matter how long or pleading I am that not everyone will agree with me. I appreciate your comments and I am kinda tickled to get one of the Lurker "point by point" break downs (I never think anyone actually reads my long posts.)

I will say that I do feel that the people behind this series have much to consider with their story. I, too, hope that this latest video allows for a new exciting direction in the story and the format of this series.

gogo

[Lurker]

I appreciate your points. Looking over what I have written in this topic and your most recent response, I must say that I do sound afraid to have people disagree or agree to disagree. Yikes! (Perhaps I should be a politician who tries to please everyone without anyone realizing it.)

You'd be one of a small handful of politicians who try pleasing everyone at all (with or without them knowing). At least in the United States. That, actually, would be a good thing.

I might just be too fearful of confrontations or too worried about the impression I make on others. This is not the best quality to have, I suppose. I guess if I am going to express myself on this forum, I am going to have to accept that no matter how long or pleading I am that not everyone will agree with me. I appreciate your comments and I am kinda ticked to get one of the Lurker "point by point" break downs (I never think anyone actually reads my long posts.)

"Ticked" in a good way? Anyway, you're welcome for the response, and I appreciate your comments as well. I don't share the fear of offending anyone to the same extent that you do, but I respect that you feel that way.

You don't have to operate any differently than you have been, by the way. If you personally feel that you need to, sure, go ahead, but stay true to your own sense of interacting with others.

I will say that I do feel that the people behind this series have much to consider with their story. I, too, hope that this latest video allows for a new exciting direction in the story and the format of this series.

There's something we can definitely agree on.

[gogo]

Yikes! I meant "tickled"! Not ticked!

[DreamerM]

Wow Lurker! Amazing! Way to make me look lazy in my own thread! I bow before the superior analyst.

Small note worth addressing: the "miss me" video. Talk about heavy handed. I like where the "Daniel the Brainwashed/ converted/ whatever" plotline could go: mostly because I hope above all hope that THIS will be the push bree needs to ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING. And by that I don't mean "sit back and let the indecisive boys come up with thier lame plans." I mean "use some of that exclusive knowledge she absolutely REFUSES to share, form a REAL plan and hit them where it hurts!"

That ALONE would be worth all the time I have sunk into this series.

Yes, some people will be annoyed when thier theories are proven wrong. So what. They'll be too busy trailing the threads of a deepening mystery to complain too much.

There is a single rule of storytelling that the Creators and those working for them really, really, REALLY need to remember:

"If it doesn't serve the plot, don't put it in the story." It doesn't matter if it's the most facinating tidbit ever, trim the fat, remove everything that is not story. The tail-chasing would end, research would actually mean something, everyone would be happier.