Contradiction between Crowley and Bree's parents

[raveneffect]

I'm not aware that Crowley ever mentions anything about "believing" in "Free Will" anywhere in his writings.

To the contrary, he suspected that by the time we hit adolescence, we've become so "trained" by society's silly morals that we wouldn't know what to do with a "free will" if it came gift-wrapped and tattoed with our name on it.

This is where the concepts of discipline, and what Crowley defined as the "True Will" (which I'm assuming you're badly confusing with "free will") come in. In Crowley's system, one's True Will (their "purpose" or "role" in human evolution) can only be realized once the mind is focused and pinpointed, much like the tip of a pencil. He also recognizes a "lower will", which is much more a reflection of socially-imposed guilt/shame, and which usually works against the True Will. It is this lower will, which usually functions automatically and without much thought, which must not be "fed" with the temptation of everyday superficial trivialities. Therefore, what people usually define as a "free will" is really just a superimposition of the limited reality-tunnel that social training induces.

The concept is much like the id/ego/superego model of basic psychology. Using this analogy, id=True Will, superego=social conscience, ego=a false will, contrary to the true will, and a product of the superego.

Crowley was very scientific, don't forget. If Bree's parents are influenced by Crowley, they have no "philosophical" resistance to Bree having a social life. They merely recognize "society" - with all its trappings and distractions - as being a major hindrance in one's personal realization of their True Will. I know on the surface, this may seem paradoxical, but Crowley's practice was anything but superficial: in order to be Free, one must first be bound to their divine purpose.

[Truth-in-Science]

Excellent!! Well-stated, raveneffect.

[rachelalexis]

The concept is much like the id/ego/superego model of basic psychology. Using this analogy, id=True Will, superego=social conscience, ego=a false will, contrary to the true will, and a product of the superego.

So pretty much follow your constant need for food, sex and violence. Lovely.

[raveneffect]

Food, sex and violence give us the means to continue the race.

The True Will gives us the meaning to continue the race.

And there you have the difference.

[curriguy]

Crowley was very scientific, don't forget. If Bree's parents are influenced by Crowley, they have no "philosophical" resistance to Bree having a social life. They merely recognize "society" - with all its trappings and distractions - as being a major hindrance in one's personal realization of their True Will. I know on the surface, this may seem paradoxical, but Crowley's practice was anything but superficial: in order to be Free, one must first be bound to their divine purpose.

oh snap!! that definately resolves it.

[JustAnotherLonelyGirl.]

::applauds raveneffect::

[sparrow]

Often parents can be even harder on their kids than the actual religion. I grew up Catholic, and my mother's favorite thing to say to make us feel guilty was, "I really think you need to go to Confession."

I got this the most during the angst-filled teen years, when I would get so upset I'd end up screaming and crying and arguing with my parents.

The thing is that many of the things she thought needed disciplining/confessing weren't really all that sinful, at least not to the point that if I died at that very moment I'd go straight to hell, which was the implication of what she said.

I think this is Bree's parents version of what my mother would say to me. The implication that you've done something so bad that you are currently not worthy of the religious activity (in my case, Communion, in hers, the Ceremony).

[heybitch]

Alot of what you guys - in this strand and others - seems too logical.
Since when were shows so thoughtfully logical?

[tannhaus]

Very well said. But, it appears that the person below you either can't read, or refuses to understand.

I've met a lot of Thelemites in my 16 years of being one. I've met a lot of Thelemic parents during that time as well. I can honestly say that I've never met a single one that didn't want their children socializing with non-thelemites (They encouraged their child to see other points of view).

[lonelygirl]

It is clear to me now that LG15's religion is not Thelema, directly.

Crowleyian Thelema, or A.C.'s point of view is that:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

That is the whole point of Thelema, from a fundamental principle.

If Bree (and her parents) subscribes to this religion, then why would there be a breach in the purity bond if everything is of free will?

I agree that their religion is probably not just Thelema directly but some altered version of it you know like how they have different religious sects, etc. I think, however, that the whole "Do what thou wilt" thing has been taken out of context. From what I've read, it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and that includes doing whatever you want to reach a state of spiritual enlightnment. I think that might be the reason why Aleister Crowley was considered the most evil man who ever lived because people took his statements out of context also. Do what thou wilt doesn't mean you can just go out and murder people or harm others, even if that's going to lead you to spiritual enlightenment. I think you have to try not to interfere with other people in terms of doing things that will harm them. That's at least what I've read about it anyway. And to me it does seem like her parents are only strict with who she hangs out with and where she goes but she seems to be able to do whatever she wants in her room otherwise. Maybe they are just strict parents and it doesn't have so much to do with their religion or it could be like someone said that it's a cult of some sort that is careful about letting outsiders in. I don't know if any of this makes any sense but that's my 2 cents worth.

[asenath]

I think that might be the reason why Aleister Crowley was considered the most evil man who ever lived because people took his statements out of context also. Do what thou wilt doesn't mean you can just go out and murder people or harm others, even if that's going to lead you to spiritual enlightenment.

As much as I hate to do this, since it always annoys me when people mistake Crowley for having real connections to Satanism (which is a whole other subject that gets confused and mistaken, but that's for another discussion), Crowley wasn't exactly warm and fuzzy. His personal life wasn't a life many people would lead, and he did some things that were definitely not pretty (I wouldn't use the word "evil", though, but that's just because I tend to stray away from using such religious-related terms). I don't know how much you know about him (and I'm not trying to insinutate you don't know much, either), but if you're interested in knowing more there's a documentary on YouTube about him here that depicts a lot of his darker actions. There is another one I have uploaded here, if you're interested.

Either way, I still think it's a possibility that LG15's religion is Thelema. At least, it's more likely than some uber-conservative Christian religion. I think it's probably some small sect of Thelema, or somehow related to Crowley at least.

[tannhaus]

As much as I hate to do this, since it always annoys me when people mistake Crowley for having real connections to Satanism (which is a whole other subject that gets confused and mistaken, but that's for another discussion), Crowley wasn't exactly warm and fuzzy. His personal life wasn't a life many people would lead, and he did some things that were definitely not pretty (I wouldn't use the word "evil", though, but that's just because I tend to stray away from using such religious-related terms). I don't know how much you know about him (and I'm not trying to insinutate you don't know much, either), but if you're interested in knowing more there's a documentary on YouTube about him

Actually, I wouldn't trust those videos...

If you wish to honestly know about Crowley, read the book Perdurabo. It's a very scholarly biography and one that is supported as true by many that knew him.

[asenath]

As much as I hate to do this, since it always annoys me when people mistake Crowley for having real connections to Satanism (which is a whole other subject that gets confused and mistaken, but that's for another discussion), Crowley wasn't exactly warm and fuzzy. His personal life wasn't a life many people would lead, and he did some things that were definitely not pretty (I wouldn't use the word "evil", though, but that's just because I tend to stray away from using such religious-related terms). I don't know how much you know about him (and I'm not trying to insinutate you don't know much, either), but if you're interested in knowing more there's a documentary on YouTube about him

Actually, I wouldn't trust those videos...

If you wish to honestly know about Crowley, read the book Perdurabo. It's a very scholarly biography and one that is supported as true by many that knew him.

Ah, thanks for the recommendation. I've read a bit about him, and we have a few of his books here (my husband's read the majority of his stuff, and I was really into his writing when I was a teenager). I've never read a full biography about him, though. Just the few documentaries I've watched and downloaded.

[tannhaus]

Ah, thanks for the recommendation. I've read a bit about him, and we have a few of his books here (my husband's read the majority of his stuff, and I was really into his writing when I was a teenager). I've never read a full biography about him, though. Just the few documentaries I've watched and downloaded.

I generally don't trust anything about Crowley. There are a lot of things said that *I* know to be false..much less someone who actually researched to do a biography. But, Perdurabo is gold.

Here it is at amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Perdurabo-Aleiste ... F8&s=books

If you have fallen for some of the myths, this will give you a whole new perspective on the man.

[asenath]

Ah, thanks for the recommendation. I've read a bit about him, and we have a few of his books here (my husband's read the majority of his stuff, and I was really into his writing when I was a teenager). I've never read a full biography about him, though. Just the few documentaries I've watched and downloaded.

I generally don't trust anything about Crowley. There are a lot of things said that *I* know to be false..much less someone who actually researched to do a biography. But, Perdurabo is gold.

Here it is at amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Perdurabo-Aleiste ... F8&s=books

If you have fallen for some of the myths, this will give you a whole new perspective on the man.

Ah, a link! Even better. Thanks. You're right; it can be very hard to determine the truth from the myth when it comes to that man.