View source for LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp/Archives

This is the archive of discussions from [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp|the fanfic revamp]] that are no longer active or have been resolved.  To revive an old issue, please start a new thread at [[LGPedia:Lucy's Balcony/Fanfic revamp|the fanfic revamp]].

===Questioning some of the earlier listings===
*[[Aaronbeast]] - only four videos, each with only a moderate number of views; no connection to [[the Creators]].
::''How are four vids with a moderate number of views and nothing else to say notable?''
*[[Breeiswaiting]] - only one video; mentioned by [[Nikki Bower]] but there's not enough for a comprehensive page.
::''One video is clearly not enough to count as a series, and the Nikki Bower mention is probably noted on that video's page.''
*[[Cassieresurrection]] - doesn't seem very popular, but at least deserves a mention; perhaps should be in Tier 1?
::''You say yourself it doesn't seem very popular, so why does it deserve a mention?''
*[[Deemontreal]]'s "lonelygirl" vid -- though only one video, it has reached 922,540 views - one of the most for any LG15 fanvid.  And while it's not fanfiction, it features several recurring themes, events, and jokes from the early days of lonelygirl15.
::''Again, one video does not make a series, ''and'' you admit it's not fanfic - if anything, this should go on a "Notable fan videos" page or something.''
*[[Kelseygirl15]] - there seems to be enough information to warrant this tier, but maybe it should be in tier 2; at the very least, this page should be combined with [[Ellastko]], [[Schneidz124]], and [[Linsy]].
::''The current page does not mention any kind of overarching plot or anything of the like - is there anything that makes it notable beyond that there seems to be enough information?''
The point is not only organizing what we have - it's mainly weeding out, and setting standards and precedents for future additions. We ''don't want'' to keep everything. We ''want'' to identify the unnotable series and get rid of them.<br>
Oh, and btw: It's called "Agreed listings" because those are the ones we agree on ;)
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:31, 22 January 2008 (CST)
::Well, the only ones ''I'' actually threw up on the board were DeeMontreal's fanvid, the lonelygirl362436 spoof, and the Redearth88/OpAphid/Maddison series -- Someone else posted the others, though I don't remember who at the moment.  But of the one that was mine (Deemontreal), you do have a point.  I guess I just wanted to make sure it doesn't get lost in the Revamp.  A "Notable fan videos" page works fine with me, if it's kosher with everyone else.
:::And yeah, I realized the logic of "Agreed Listings" about three seconds after I posted them.  Silly Pheon :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:47, 22 January 2008 (CST)
:::Oops, my bad...saw you on recent changes and just checked the page, but it turns out that JonPro added the majority...sorry 'bout that :/
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:52, 22 January 2008 (CST)

::::Yeah, sorry about adding things in the "Agreed listings" section; I guess I just didn't read.... As far as my suggestions, before I address that I think we may need to restructure the tiers. I know I should have said this earlier, but I guess I didn't look at them close enough to notice a problem. Or I read Zoey's descriptions and didn't realize they changed from that (I think they did at least...) I definitely think we should have a page that covers all notable fanfic series which do not get their own page. It's not too hard to write a one-sentence description of a series, and it can give new/unknown series much-needed publicity as well as provide a nice reference for people looking for lg15-related series. And, the Creators have said time and time again that they want to promote fan-fiction. I understand that doesn't mean we have to go as far as we have gone in the past, but I still think we need to honor that request as best we can. In light of this, I wouldn't mind moving the series you questioned down to the tier I just described. I think that they at least deserve a mention here, and since there didn't seem to be a tier for that, I went ahead and suggested tier 2. I understand you're reasoning though, and I'm happy to continue discussing this. If anyone else has an opinion, ''please'' post something here. If you don't say anything, we don't know what you're thinking and your voice can't be heard. Thanks!--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 22:42, 25 January 2008 (CST)
:I feel that one of the uses of the LGpedia is as one place where you can find out about various LG15 inspired videos. Even if there is just a link to the different Youtube accounts and a sentence description. I don't think we should be just throwing mentions of sites away just because they're not popular. Wikipedia doesn't not feature articles on things that are less popular these things may just have shorter articles.
:(Note: I'm new to all of this just thought I'd give my opinion) I think it would be fine to place the music video as part of a notable fan videos section. I just hope that if it is moved to there that all the detailed trivia about the video is not lost. [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]

===Other Series===
Back to the discussion...
*[[Lonelyjew15]] -- Should it be expanded? It is a parody of Lonelygirl15, one of its characters is played by [[Amanda Goodfried]], and it seems to get a decent amount of views.
*[[MessyNessy89]] -- I'm not sure if it deserves more or not (It at least deserves what it already has). It seems to have become more prevalent in the lg15 community... enough to have it's own section on the Forum and LG15Today, so why not here? 
Thoughts? Do you agree with me? Do you think I'm full of Orange Slurpees? Let's get this going again. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 22:07, 8 February 2008 (EST)
:I'd say LJ15 should be Tier 4, although I'm opposed to transcribing it. MessyNessy should Tier 2, so I don't think it should get any more pages than it already has.
:Now for my input on this: I just noticed that we have EVERY video ever posted by one the [[List of New Girl Candidates|new girls]] transcribed and treated as a series. I think this should definitely be rethought. I know some of them got expanded into series, but some of them are just random and really don't deserve that much attention. I'm half tempted to take care of it myself right now, actually. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)
::''NOTE: If we do decide to put up separate pages for each LJ15 episode, SonofaStitch has offered to give us the official scripts from the episodes.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:57, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I agree on the issue about the new girl pages. The only New Girl Videos that seem to have a decent amount of views are the early ones and some of [[The Flock]] Videos. We have this lovely [[List of New Girl Candidates]] page that can be used to condense some of this information (i.e. they have their own section as opposed to a series of pages, though I personally think that The Flock pages should be left at the same level which they presently are). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:38, 24 February 2008 (EST)

===Historical Notability===

What if certain videos were notable during their time? (easiest example I can think of: [[itscassie]])  I honestly wouldn't want future fans, not to mention present ones, to not be able to explore all the nooks and crannies of the Breeniverse here at this central "everything about LG" spot simply because times have changed.  --[[User:DoubleG|DoubleG]] 20:27, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:If things were notable at any point in time, I agree that they should be covered. The question is how far in depth should we go? In the above-mentioned example, I think that we would want to expand the itscassie page with important notes and tidbits and nix the transcripts. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (CST)

===Bias===

Based on the suggested tiers list, I think there is some pretty biased decisions going on here.  I'm not going to go into why I feel certain projects are incorrectly rated higher than others but I think my defense of the Flock will show where the logic is faulty.  1) Historic significance: the Flock grew out of the New Girl challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period, it was also named a Community Appreciation Week winner, 2) it may be the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content with over 50 videos, 3) it's currently an active series, 4) it's a derivative series, not independent 5) it has it's own forum section and finally 6) the pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.

How's this for Tier 5 criteria?  It has to have it's own forum section.  If it has it's own forum section then a) it's an active series and b) there is discussion ocurring that may lead back to the lgpedia for further research.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 21:26, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:I'm sorry, I just can't see The Flock being any higher than Tier 4, and even that's a stretch. Tier 3, sure. Honestly, with even a Tier 2 page you can effectively list all of the characters, plot, and associated YouTube accounts. It DOES NOT need transcripts, as it currently has, which is the big definition of Tier 5, if you ask me.
:And we ''all'' are aware of potential bias going on here, that's why we want as many people to contribute as possible. It's hard to determine how to rate something if we've only got two people arguing on where a series should be listed. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:31, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::I'm having a hard time following your logic.  At least back up your argument with reasons.  If you wanted to start to follow the Flock but didn't want to watch all the videos because there are so many, how would you do it?  You'd need character pages and transcripts.  Here's why I think the whole process is backwards.  How can you rate a independent above a derivative?  Anything you want to learn about Tachyon and OpAphid as it relates to lg15 can be found within lg15 related pages, how's that a reason to get a free pass in this section?  Not to mention, RE has it's own site.  MA has it's own site.  theCoalition has it's own site(I am associated with theCoalition, just so people don't think I'm randomly throwing people under the bus.)  Point is there are other places to go to learn about them.  Derivatives exist at lg15.com only.  I could argue that these independent series be rated lower than derivatives for these very reasons but that's not my intention.  With the scary combined popularity of RE, MA and T&O combined their lgpedia page has 7,104 hits.  The Flockipedia has 4,421 hits and you're going to try and justify The Flock in Tier 2? --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:20, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::Well, you sold at least me, Immortal.  Honestly, I don't know that much of The Flock other than the fact that it did come out of the New Girl challenge, so thanks for bringing all that to (at least) my knowledge.  Shiori is also right in that there should be more input in this Revamp, so I'd honestly like to hear from more people.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:18, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm sold on Having the Flock on a high tier as well. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 19:40, 24 February 2008 (EST)
:::To be fair, I said The Flock ''could'' be shoved into Tier 2. Personally, especially with the argument you just gave, I'd say it deserves at least Tier 3 status, but I wouldn't call it Tier 5 by any stretch; Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level. I also don't think there should be transcripts for The Flock episodes, or really any series other than Tier 5. (Just my personal opinion; don't jump down my throat on it.)
:::(Note: I wouldn't call this so much bias rather than people having no idea what series have what significance. I've done some more research on The Flock and maintain my suggestion Tier 3 or 4 status. You guys can overthrow this opinion though, of course. The LGPedia is a democracy for the most part.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:32, 24 February 2008 (CST)
:::''Also, I'm so glad you guys agree with me on the New Girl listings. I was thinking that the ones that didn't form into their own series should just have their profile information merged into the New Girl page itself, and we could nix the video listings. The ones that did branch out could have a link to a broadened profile information for the series on a separate page, and at the bottom I think there should be a small summary of The Flock, with a link to the series page.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:37, 24 February 2008 (CST)
::::Just putting in my two cents. Honestly, I think one of the points brought up is very important: Does the series have its own webpage? If it does (such as RedEarth, etc.), I would be swayed to having a simple summary and a link on THOSE pages more than on a series that does not have their own page. Honestly, if the LGPedia is all they've got, yanking that away from them just seems...well, not good. I personally use the transcripts a lot, especially when I'm trying to explain the series to a newcomer. AND there's the fact that the transcripts often have "clues" in them (things that people have seen in the videos that others might miss, explanations of forums/comments discussion). Without that, new people would have to watch the videos, read up on the forums, watch the videos again if people seem to be talking about something they missed...that seems bad. It seems so much easier just to be able to read in the transcripts: "-Some fans have noted she was wearing orange. -She seems to be spelling something. -Forum discussion later revealed that... -There has been discussion as to..." and so on. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 21:11, 24 February 2008 (MST)
:::::Just because someone has their own page should not disqualify them from being anything on the pedia! Redearth88 just put up a very nice simple page to show things off. They don't have anything about the summaries of videos or stuff, and it was set up to just be a place to go, with forums and such still being on lg15.com. The simple appearance of a website should not enter into the relevance of these teirs. If redearth88.com ever becomes way more than it is, I might could understand this logic, but not as it is currently construed. These "web pages" are not enough to replace the pedia. Lonelyjew15's web page is certainly not enough to disqualify them, as their site was also set up just to show things off. The Coalition's site is still in its beginning stages, and once again, their forums are still on lonelygirl15. I don't support this logic. There are no current websites that are extensive enough to warrant removal from the pedia. My, with this logic, people would be reluctant to set up simple web pages at all, even though they could. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 8:32, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::::If for some reason these other sites felt underepresented here they have another option.  My point is that derivative series have no real other options but to make their presence here.  Not saying they should nor that it should effect the process here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:56, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I'm just saying that it should be taken into consideration that these could possibly put transcripts up on their own site, whereas other series (I'm taking the Flock as my example) simply rely on their pages in the LGpedia and have nowhere to go. They also have a place in the forum and such. I was stating the above more in defense of the "Flockipedia" than to suggest taking down the other series' pages. [[User:LoveableMe|LoveableMe]] 7:23, 25 February 2008 (MST)

:In term of bias- I may have been mistaken.  Looking at the current suggested listings I assumed bias.  After participating in the discussion I now think when it comes to this subject many are just uninformed and unaware.  It would help greatly if the initial listings were justified with reasons.  I can't say why someone is listed to high without being accused of delisting or backstabbing when they really are just improperly placed.  So all I can do is advocate and eleviate those placed too low.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 14:06, 26 February 2008 (CST)

====Reply to all====
I think there are some misconceptions here. The important criterion is ''still'' notability, not pedia hits, transcripts or websites.  Let's start from the top:
*"Historic significance": Multiple series spawned out of the Cassie craze, yet few became truly notable - where a series came from and how slow the forum was at its birthday can be considered, but is hardly a good criterion - that's like saying "I'm a celebrity, get me out of here!" is a great show, purely on the basis that nothing better is on. A truly notable show wouldn't gloat about sustaining a slow period, but about still being relevant in an active period. Being the only one that plays does mean you're the best player - but not that you're a good player.
: -I may argue historic significance for Immant and LordGreystoke422 just for the hell of it.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::You can do that, if you wish. Just pick a different section, please, as this one is occupied by Flock discussion.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | 
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Immant's inactive and LGS can fight his own battles.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that a Flock video won in the Community Appreciation Week is indeed noteworthy, and is a good argument to guarantee at least a Tier 2 listing.
*The quantity of videos can be considered (hence why it is among the list of suggested criteria), but again, you have to see the number of characters in comparison - "over 50" by 5 comes out as roughly 10 videos a character. It's a nice overall number, but after 10 videos, Bree had barely just gone hiking. Also, it says nothing about the length, plot, or updating schedule of those videos. If you update once a day, 10 videos a character are just two weeks - if you update weekly by character, you have three months of footage with that (with all characters) - and yet, Flockpedia is almost a year old. And that is still not even touching plot development or runtime. Quantity without info beyond pure numbers doesn't work.
:-Quantity can be measure, quality cannot.  Videos per character is irrelevant.  If we had half the character's the vids would character would double but the overall number would remain the same.  So?  And please touch plot development.  PLEASE.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I ''am'' touching plot development - that was exactly my point. If you just go by "LOOOOOK! WE HAZ MADE SOOOOOO MANY VIDEOS!!!" that says ''nothing''. So quit screaming "WE HAVE 50 VIDS!!!!!1111" and actually tell us why your 50 vids are notable enough to maintain 50 pages for them.
::You are entirely right. Quantity can be measure, quality cannot. That's why number of vids is only a partial indicator, and not a sign for "the most prolific fan series in the history of lg15 user generated content".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | 
[[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::High view numbers are not indictive of good plot development!  Are you kidding me with that?!  And when you produce the most, you're the most prolific.  Whatever you feel about lordgreystoke he still is among the most prolific vid producers.  It's pretty black and white.  I think that's notable.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*The fact that the Flock is currently active is irrelevant, as noted elsewhere on this page - would you say CiW is not notable, or less notable, simply because it's not active anymore? Would you say OpAphid is less notable because of that?
:-CiW is notable because of it's impact and it's mysterious origins.  OpAhpid is notable because the C's integrated user generated content.  As it relates to lg15 it's adequately covered on other areas of the lgpedia.  These are special cases.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that the reason why these series are more notable than The Flock is ''because'' they're special cases? What's notable about nothing special?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::You can make that arguement against every other series listed.  The point is they are notable for reasons others cannot because in today's landscape they cannot be repeated.  So it's apples and oranges.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Derivative vs. independent - see [[#Suggested Tiers|here]].
:-see below.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)  
*Forum section - as far as I can see, that section is a sub section of "New Videos". While the fact that it does have a forum section is another slight notability increase, the placement of this section could mean it's purely to cope with the constant influx of new videos from The Flock (after all, it's "over 50" by now) - iow, it might not have been a notability decision, but purely an organizational one.
:-The New Girl section was created due to the influx of videos from the response to the New Girl Video challenge.  The Flock subforum was created when the New Girl section was eliminated.  I forgot about that.  +1 for impact.  +1 for historical significance.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::So basically, I'm right? The forum was created for organizational purposes due to the number of posts your casting call generated, not because people actually talked about the finished series?
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::The New Girl section was- you don't think that's notable?  The subforum was created to support the series.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for the page maintenance crowd, that can be spun the other way round just as well: The Flock is so insignificant that the staff doesn't waste time with it. :P It's very nice the administration doesn't have to care for it, but given that we all can edit lgpedia, the fact that no "rogue users" edit The Flock pages is just another indicator that it's largely unknown outside its small core fanbase.
:-Cheap shot.  Conversely, maybe if the staff promoted and edited all series the way they do RE88 everyone would benefit.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::It's not a cheap shot, it's a demonstration - the same argument works both ways. Hence why it said "that can be spun the other way round just as well". And why would the staff waste time needed for important administrative matters and maintenance of community favorites to update 50 pages of a series that so far fails to convince of its notability?
::As I pointed out before, the discussion whether RE should be listed at all is below. Until we officially decide RE is out of scope of the pedia, it gets treated as exactly what it is to us right now - one of the most important fanfic series around.
::If The Flock had 10,000+ views per episode, it'd get the same treatment.
::....or you could just do it yourself instead of wanting the staff to do it. Because, as you may have noticed: Your Flock-fan-maintained pages lack transcripts all over the place.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::Thank you, yes I do want to do it myself and for the most part we have!  I just want to be left alone, really.  We just revealed a new character and that character's past videos now are incorprated into the series.  That's why they need transcripts.  Again with the views--maybe we should talk about acrowleyorder?  I don't see them on your list.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for your proposed Tier 5 criteria, let me repeat the phrase on top: "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." You never know how the next big series will be structured - maybe they'll have their own, dedicated forums somewhere, not needing space at lg15.com in the first place? Would they be less notable, simply because they can provide for themselves?
:-Quarterlife is going to be on national television.  Stars an actress who played a popular character on lg15.  Is that notable enough for you?  Where are the QL pages?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::I didn't know quarterlife was LG15 fanfic. If it is, and it is on television, then we've got another Tier 5 right there. You seem to be more knowledgable about it than I am...would you mind creating actor pages for all actors, crew pages for all crew, character pages for each character, episode pages for each episode, templates, portals, list of episode and so on? Thank you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::I didn't now RE was fanfic.  Why don't you ask Glenn during his radio show if that's how he wants his show categorized.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*As for a series having its own site, the fact that those series do, while The Flock apparently doesn't, once more can be spun the opposite way: Apparently, RE and MA are popular enough to sustain independent websites, whereas The Flock can't even get new people to edit its pedia entries.
:-The Flock is a derivative.  It would make no sense to make home anywhere else.  Whereas those shows are trying to establish an identity elsewhere, which you think would work against them in this arguement, all we want to do is solidify our position here.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)  
::I can record two 172x144px, underlit, grainy videos with my mobile claiming to be Professor Del Mundo's former roommate - that makes my "series" a derivate, but by far not notable enough to warrant pedia pages.
::All fanfics are derivatives by default. Some more than others, and that is ''exactly'' the reason we're discussing MA and RE below. But what you're basically arguing is that your fanfic is fanfic - that's true, but doesn't mean you can spam the pedia with 50 additional video pages.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::::"All fanfics are derivatives by default."  Are you serious?!  Try reading the TOS.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:35, 25 February 2008 (CST)
*Hits. Yes, hits can be hints. But only if used correctly, in comparable situations. You cannot just compare Redearth88's hits and The Flock's, simply because a large part of RE88 is Tachyon, OpAphid and Brother, all of whose hits go to independent pages, or to Aphidpedia. In addition, The Flock has 5, if not more, vlogging characters, several of which do regular blogging as well, thus "catching" a lot more hits simply through quantity, not necessarily through quality, or notability. Let's do a little experiment and click on Cynthia/CynnamonDolce, the first character listed. 679, of which one would be me. Now let's click on the first RE88 character listed, Rachel...wait for it..."This page has been accessed 3,652 times.". Hmmm. Let's go to MA. Maddison Atkins..."This page has been accessed 3,486 times."<br>I can't even find TheCoalition mentioned outside this page, but all five The Flock main characters have {{#expr: 679 + 708 + 56 + 319 + 677}} hits together. vs. 3652 for Rachel ''alone''. Are you ''sure'' you want to argue with cumulated hits?
:-No one competes with RE, they have an advantage no one else ever will have.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh, yeah...great argument - "they have better marketing, so they don't count".
:::Is English your first language?  Don't put words in my mouth.  The advantage they have is that they are written by a former lg15 writer.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::If they are fanfic, then ''tough luck'' - Glenn was successful, so Glenn was made official. I sure as hell will not punish successful fanfic just because they make your creations look less successful. As a matter of fact, it's telling that, even though Glenn's characters are not canon anymore, they still get tens of thousands of views.
:::A significant factor is whether you consider them fanfic or not.  I do not.  They have rejected the term.  I'm not trying to punish anyone.  I've never once said they don't belong in Tier 5.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Has it ever occurred to you that that mysterious advantage is simply that Glenn is better than you? That that is why his characters are liked through canon and beyond, whereas you have to fight for every hit?
:::Actually that's never ocurred to me.  Let's chck the score 6 months from now.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)  
::Don't you think it's rather cheap to try backstabbing other content creators just to make yourself look more important?
:::Wow man.  Where have I backstabbed?  What flavored crack are you on?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)  
::::You know of everything you've said, this sticks in my gut the most because someone out there who doesn't know any better might actually believe you.  I've done more for content creators then anyone and have tried to contribute to the community whenever the opportunity presented itself..  I hope anyone reading this will click my user name and decide for themselves.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 00:09, 26 February 2008 (CST)  
::It's your own choice to write the way you do, to use the characters you use, to present the way you present - if it's not successful, and can't compete with other series, that's not Glenn's fault, and that doesn't make Glenn's skill an unfair advantage.
::"But they are so much more successful!!!!" is not a valid argument to justify classifying The Flock as notable.
:::Again where do you get this stuff?  I just don't want my pages scaled back.  I need them more for new viewers not existing ones.  The only reason why I brought up that other series have their own sites because it helps them establish themselves as independents and as derivatives it doesn't make sense to do that.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)  
::If they're not fanfic...then they're no problem for you.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)


'''Non-immo notes following:'''
*"Tier 5 is reserved for series that have actually input from the C's on a rather significant level." is bullshit. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The fact that a series had input from the creators just significantly improves its notability. Yet, lonelygirl362436 is only Tier 4, even though it was made by the Creators as well, and we're still discussing where LJ15 should end up. No Tier 5 (or any other Tier, for that matter), is not "reserved" for anything. Hell, I myself proposed MA to be listed as Tier 5, and, as far as I know, no Creator had his hands in that.
*Whether or not a series has external appearances such as websites is ''irrelevant''. "The important and sole decisive criterion is '''notability'''." The question is not "Does this series have any other place where you can read about it?", but "Is this series notable enough to be listed on LGPedia?". I'm going to put it very bluntly now: Why should we host every single cheap one-time-vlogger, just because everybody else knows he's not significant enough to be mentioned? The fact that we ''do'' host a lot of stuff nobody cares for (both in a worldly and a pedian sense) is the reason we're having this discussion in the first place. Combine what Virginian and I said: Why should a series ''suffer'' from the fact that it's built a large enough community to sustain an independent website? All series are being considered equally. It's just that in some cases, notability is obvious, while others are so barely known in the first place that they need careful consideration.

To finally let me close this, let me say one more thing about The Flock: I am hanging around the chatroom pretty much the whole day, both in the older #HymnOfOne as well as the official #LG15chat. And I must say that, for a series that is supposedly oh-so-popular and notable, I hear rather few about it. In fact I don't remember ''any'' talk about The Flock, except for Evilgade's automatic posting of LG15 Today's updates when mm posted an episode at the blog. Yet, in the same room(s), stuff like RE, MA, MessyNessy, and hell, even lonefox101 and the dead OpAphid and Cassieiswatching are frequently mentioned or discussed.<br>
Of course that leaves out the forums, and of course that leaves out other obscure chatrooms - but you do have to admit that it doesn't bode well for your claims of notability if no one ever talks about the series in the official chatroom - ''especially'' if it's a derivative series, and not an independent one.
:-The offical chatroom that has been resurrected for all of a few months?  The one that has been populated primarily by ARG players who never left?  See above, the Flock's forum history/presence more than makes up for the lack of IRC chatter.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:34, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Yeah, exactly...the one that is populated by well-known community members, forum mods, and gets flooded with "ordinary" community members whenever a character chat is going on. Weird no one ever talks about The Flock, isn't it?
:::I'd be surprised if they did.  How is it IRC is more important then the forum or the comment board?  Each of which has Flock comments or discussion.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)  
::And right, see above about your <del>filing system</del> forum.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

Given the volume of information that could arise from the 50 videos and 5 main + 6 supporting characters, I would be willing to vote for a Tier 3 listing, and maybe a bump to 4 later for organizational purposes - under the condition that somebody can actually show that The Flock is notable beyond its Community Appreciation Week victory. To throw out numbers again, the first video of season 2 of The Flock was viewed 288 times before I clicked. The first video of RE88 (which can count as video 1 of "season 2" of MA) was viewed 12,898 times so far, and hell, 3-episode-long's lonelygirl362436's first video was watched ''306,386'' times.<br>
''That'' is the relation we're talking about. Even combining both the very first, and season 2's first episode of The Flock, you still only get {{#expr: 288 + 349}} views - compared to over 12000 for redearth's first. Hell, if I added up all views of The Flock ''ever'', would I even get to 12000?<br>
Dude. Immo. Seriously. I'm not trying to belittle your series. But get real. To imply your series is on par with OpAphid, or just as notable as Redearth, is just ridiculous. As said, I'm willing to vote for 3 if there's a little more, but from pure numbers (and ''you'' were the one starting with numbers), you'll definitely not get into Tier 5.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
<small>P.S.: And I'm *so* not gonna proof read this :P</small><br>
<small>P.P.S.: Then again, the definition of "notable" would surely shift a little if "they" won the discussion below, proving that RE88 and MA are independent, and thus beyond the scope of the pedia...just in case you want to try that.</small>
:-We can't go by views either.  We all know views can be fudged.  We don't want to go there do we?  Especially when people have admitted they are not above doing that sort of thing.  Yeah I think you do mean to belittle what we achieved.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:00, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Let's look at it this way: Lonelyjew, a series FAR more notable than The Flock has no transcripts. Hell, it's currently being displayed as a Tier 2 page. While we're planning on expanding it, we're still probably not going to expand to transcripts. You can get the gist of The Flock without transcripts. I think we all just need to chill out a bit; we're not saying The Flock can't stay, and we're most certainly not belittling it, we're just saying it's being covered far too extensively than it warrants with its notability. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:39, 25 February 2008 (CST)
::Oh right...we can't go by video views...but pedia page views are perfectly fine!</sarcasm>
::Decide. Either we play number games, then you'll definitely lose against OpAphid, MA and RE (hell, The Flock might even lose against Dr. Immant), or we don't - but then you'll have to come up with something better than "Look! We've got 50 vids and 4000+ pedia hits! We're notable!".
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::This is a lgpedia discussion so that current pages are being used is relevant.  And I have continually answered your call for things that make the Flock notable you just choose not to agree. --[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:33, 25 February 2008 (CST)

==Additonal Criteria==
I don't understand how notability became the "sole decisive" criteria.  This should be about a) supporting content creators and b) providing information that is needed and useful.  Just think about when you go to the general wiki- it's usally to learn about something you don't already know about.  If not, it's to learn in more detail something you are already familiar with.  It's usually the former but notability only applies to the latter.  It's a factor but others should be considered. 

1) It's currently an active series: if a series is currently putting out videos that would prompt potential new viewers to learn more about it.  Inactive series like CiW are notable so they already qualfy.

2) It has it's own forum subsection: active discussion might lead to a topic that needs further research.
--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Self Published Pages or Fan Edits==
I appreciate the formatting tweaks and such admin have done for the Flockipedia but the vast majority of edits have not come from them.  So if it's not to cut back on their workload what purpose does it serve to scale back pages?  I'd be more than happy to maintain my own pages with the understanding that if they become neglected the staff can delete them.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 01:02, 26 February 2008 (CST)

==Suggested Tiers==
Since I went through all of the series today in order to tag them, I figured I'd list ALL of the series on the Pedia right now, ordered where I think they should go (the agreed upon ones will be bolded).

'''''Update 1:''' Tentatively upgrading The Flock to Tier 3 until a solid Tier listing can be established.'' - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:40, 24 February 2008 (CST)
{|
|-
|width="50"|'''Tier 1'''||[[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[User:Brucker|Brucker]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Deemontreal]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[Tannhaus]], [[TWJaniak]] <small>(should be listed, but not as a spin-off)</small>, [[Will O' Wisp]], [[Worldfiles]], [[ZorinXL]], Vast majority of [[List of New Girl Candidates|the new girls]], {{youtube-user|iluuvme}}
|-
|'''Tier 2'''||[[User:ApotheosisAZ|ApotheosisAZ]], '''[[Bubbleteagirl]]''', [[Kelseygirl15]], '''[[Frankiswaking]]''', [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Immant]], [[Itscassie]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[User:Marbella|Marbella]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[Xeniph]]
|-
|'''Tier 3'''||[[Cassieiswatching]], [[Facility J]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[Paulmark18]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[The Flock]]
|-
|'''Tier 4'''||'''[[lonelygirl362436]]''', [[LonelyJew15]]
|-
|'''Tier 5'''||'''[[Maddison Atkins]]''', '''[[OpAphid]]''', '''[[Redearth88]]'''
|}
Clearly there's tons to do on all of these pages, but we can't really discuss how to edit down pages until we can agree on exactly where in the hierarchy things should be. I'm sure I'm missing something, so feel free to add to the list. ''**Keep in mind that Tier 1 is generally not going to be listed on the Pedia, but WILL (most likely) be mentioned on the complete list of fan series.**'' Discuss and go! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:44, 21 February 2008 (CST)
:I mentioned these "series" above ([[ZorinXL]], [[Will O' Wisp]], and [[Worldfiles]]): Tier 1 or what?? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 00:11, 22 February 2008 (CST)
::I added them in. They should all probably Tier 1, but ZorinXL does deserve a link to its YouTube profile (Only becomes an issue if we revamp the Spin-Offs page). I added Dr. Bethany to the Spin-Off list, after being prodded by Jenni; I really think that one deserves a link, but I don't know about its own page... Also, since she's got notability, I was contemplating nudging [[MsBlackBetty]] to Tier 2; this is only under the condition that Jenni actually does what she said she would do and get us some more information. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 08:30, 22 February 2008 (CST)

:I really don't want to go into this again, but we have to - what about Redearth's and MA's fanfic status? I think we'd all agree on their Tier 5 listing, but as most of us have seen, the players insist they're independent series with no connection to LG15.
:If the creators of the respective series agree with that, then both RE88 and MA are basically outside of our scope - we do LG and LG-related stuff, not independent series the community just so happens to like as well...

:We have to sort that out. Thoughts?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:51, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I think the thing here is that MA and RE88 tell the official continuing story of characters ([[OpAphid]], [[Tachyon]], and [[Brother]]) who were once an integral part of the LG15 universe. I think most who have followed their stories thru lg15 would be interested to know "where are they going next" and as such, I see justification for covering them as Tier 5. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 09:23, 23 February 2008 (CST)

::I just wanted to add my quick two cents. Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins have always been a huge part of the Lonelygirl15 community and resides on the LG15 forums. They are not outside the scope of the LGPedia, which has always been established for the fans to edit as they will. This is not just a series the community happens to like as well, but one that is immersed in almost all aspects of the lonelygirl15 community. The important issue is that OpAphid, Tachyon, Brother, and warpylol are characters that once were part of the LG15 storyline, and should continue to be covered in the LGPedia. The Redearth88 and Maddison Atkins pages should continue to go forth as is. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST) (this was me all. I didn't know what I was doing so my comment got separated with the one below, lol. sorry. Didn't know what I was doing.)

::-Is the logic that any independent series with a former lg15 link deserve Tier 5 status? Because then we're going to have one hell of as Quarterlife presence.  The primary reason RE88 enjoys Tier 5 status is because of the popularity it shares among lg15's audience. Again you could argue Quarterlife enjoys this as well.  I'm not suggesting Quarterlife have lgpedia pages but under your criteria, they are elligible.  So is it really the right criteria?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:57, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::Quarterlife does not reside on the lg15 forums, and they don't have any former link to lg15. I do not see a reason for redearth88 to be knocked out of the pedia or be changed in any way. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 5:40, 25 February 2008 (EST)
::::The connection is an actress also played a popular character on lg15.  Which is it?  Is being on the forum criteria or not?  It can't work for RE and not theC.  And apparently popularity among the lg15 is a consideration which QL also has.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:51, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::When Bree or Jonas show up in Quarterlife, I will agree with you. I didn't say it could NOT work for theC. I am not arguing the criteria of these teirs or any other series' availability in them. I have not seen an argument for changing Redearth88's pages though. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 6:05, 25 February 2008 (EST)

:::::Immo, by your definition, an Indiana Jones wiki would have to cover all of Star Wars. Why don't you just admit a common actress is no link, whereas common characters are, and shut up about stupid quarterlife?
:::::Or should we set up some Greek pages, too?
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:::::::Yes just having an association to lg15 is pretty thin.  It's the common characters I'm having a problem with.  When you have an independent series that exists in it's own universe calling their characters common characters is also thin.  That's my point.  (diclaimer: no backstabbing intended with this post.)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 20:45, 25 February 2008 (CST)

:On all things ''quarterlife'': though it has notabiliy (NO ONE can deny that :P ), it is not -- I repeat ''not'' -- Fan Fiction for lonelygirl15.  So please, let's not use that show as our main evidence.  (You may now continue with the current discussion at hand :) ) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 17:18, 25 February 2008 (CST)


:*The Coalition - made up of ZorinXL, Worldfiles, Will O' Wisp, and Facility J are series, by the way. I am not sure of their place on these tiers, but perhaps the Coalition should get a summary page. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 10:30, 23 February 2008 (EST)
::I would say that those four series should probably actually all be tier 2, merged together to have a single page, which ''briefly'' summarizes what each is and gives a link to their various information. The problem we have here is that they most certainly DO NOT deserve the kind of coverage they've been getting, especially since it's to the extent of just listing off videos on the YouTube profiles. I was actually wondering if Facility J deserved being Tier 3 before, but I wasn't exactly sure what it was, so I was going to let you guys decide. Looking at it closer, what I've suggested would most likely be adequate coverage for all four of the series.
::''(Actually, on the subject of just linking to YouTube videos and having nothing else to say about the series, if that's all a series has been doing up to this point, it's notoriety is probably so low that it only deserves a Tier 1 status in the first place.)'' I'm considering The Coalition as an exception only on the standing that it's a combination of four series. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:20, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::1) 138 videos combined, 2) has their own subforum, 3) view numbers range from low to moderately high depending on the series, 4) FJ won Community Appreciation Week for best independent series--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 13:52, 26 February 2008 (CST)


Iris2009 spinof page has been listed as tier 1 yet, he only has 1 page on the lgpedia and yet, someone wants to remove a fan that has been making spinoff videos for over a year? why dont you remove all fanfic stuff, if you want to delete history. Iris has made videos 4 weeks after LG15 started..he is a dedicated fan, i cant see to remove the only Spinoff page he has, someone made some errors, i belive he blongs in Tier 2. --[[User:72.201.161.166|72.201.161.166]] 17:08, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Tier 1 doesn't mean a series isn't going to be getting coverage, it just means that it doesn't necessarily deserve a page dedicated to only his series. The Spin-offs page lists external links to a series, as well as a small summary, which is primarily what that page is now. Like I said, though, if more people agree with you we can review the rating for it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 17:43, 25 February 2008 (CST)
:Well, how about providing a compelling argumentation for his notability then? It's fine if you think he should be listed, but exactly this sort of single-person-opinion editing mentality has lead to the current mess.
:Make a case, convince the masses. If you can do that, fine. That's why we're here, after all - to discuss the listings.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:12, 25 February 2008 (CST)

I'm totally happy with were you have LonelyJew15 listed and PJ and I will help you out with any information you need regarding our series.  I'm also fine if the vids don't get transcripts but if you want info on episodes I can do that too.  Keep up the good work LGPedia!  Oh, and thanks for consideration on Dr. Bethany and MsBlackBetty.  She and I have some collaboration planned in the coming months.  --JenniPowell 25 February 2008 4:12 (PST)

'''Not Tier 2'''

These pages should remain untouched whatever tier that lands them in.
*The Homeschoolers Aggregate: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) many vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages
*Itscassie: 1) historical significant, 2) had it's own forum, 3) 39 vids, 4) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 5) well done pages, 6) wildly popular in any measurable way
*LordGreystoke422: 1) historical significant, 2) 56 vids, 3) inactive series pages require minimal maintenance, 4) participated in official chat and interacted with main characters
(DISC: advocating these series in no way is meant to backstab other series)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 05:11, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''Series to be listed'''

*[[Acrowleyorder]]: 1) currently no suggested listing. 2) controversial, 3) first season has over 25 videos, 4) high number of video views

*dehteraew: 1) "common characters," former character of RE, 2) Community Appreciation Week winner

*[[Dreams_from_the_Breeniverse]]: 1) has it's own subforum
(DISC: can we agree the backstabbing was uniformed BS yet?)--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

'''The Flock'''

Summary those who don't want to wade through the crap above.

*How many people in the community aware(seen and heard are rudundant aren't they) of the series? 1) Community Appreciation award winner, 2) has it's own subforum 
*How many views do the videos of the series have on average?  Low views but if you examine views amongs fan contribution you'll see a lot of manipulation.
*How many episodes does the series have? Over 50
*How many main characters are there? 6 current, 3 former.  All performed by fans active in the community.
*How big/complex is the production? 1) Well I'm sure everyone knows Glenn operates from one location and Sara another, multiply that by 7.  2) It's a derivative which means at any time the story can be written into a corner if it doesn't stay one step ahead of the Cs.
*And, especially for Tier 4 series, is there anything special or exceptional that needs to be considered?  1) The pages are well done and maintained mostly by fans not lgpedia staff.  2) It's a derivative which means it has a parent/child relationship with the canon series.  There is no going offsite to establish an audience or provide a website.  The lgpedia is it's primary web prescence.  2) There's some minor historic significance in that the Flock grew out of the New Girl video challenge which sustained the forum through a slow period with substantial activity in the New Girl forum section.  This is where initial Jules, Taylor and MA discussion started.  It is also a community project.      
*How is it important? That's completely the wrong question to ask.  It's not.  If you do this to be important or notable you're doing it for the wrong reasons.  But the Flock does represent the vision and spirit in which the Creators first brought the concept of accepting fan contributions to the community.  Call what I do insignificant, accuse me of whatever you like, belittle me if it makes you feel better but how many of your more notable series can say that?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 15:10, 26 February 2008 (CST)

===Starting Fresh, Perhaps===
So I've been reading this section and not commenting, just observing. After lurking for a while on, not only this convo, but chat, LG15 Today, Inside LG15, the comment boards, and the forums, I've decided to post what I feel may be closest to the opinion of the majority. Every series I'm listing has had thought behind it, so if there are ones you don't agree with, I'm happy to lay out my reasons (as long as too many people don't do this, hehe, I'll get swamped!)

Anywho, the listings:

'''Tier 1:''' [[The 707 clique]], [[Aaronbeast]], [[Breeiswaiting]], [[Brucker]], [[Bubbleteagirl]], [[Cassieresurrection]], [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]], [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).|EWLPRI]], [[Fourthface]], [[GuillotineCalamity]], [[Iris2009]], [[Maccaboy17]], [[Marbella]], [[Mission Anchor Cove]], [[MsBlackBetty]], [[N3ural N3t]], [[OpScorn]], [[ProjectStatic]], [[Kelseygirl15]], [[Lonelydude15]], [[RefusEtoBeliEveLies]], [[Sarahsnotebook]], [[StormFaction]], [[Scdgoofy]], [[TheLadyLazarus]], [[TWJaniak]], [[UtNbErS tutlaEN]], majority of the [[List of New Girl Candidates|New Girls]]

'''Tier 2:''' [[ApotheosisAZ]], [[Cassie UGC]] (consisting of, CIW and itscassie, but also [[breeiswaiting]], [[cassieresurrection]], [[frankiswaking]], [[frankiswaiting@gmail.com]] cassieisevil, cassieiswatching222, cassieseesall, etc) [[Deemontreal]], [[Dreams from the Breeniverse]], [[masonishappy]], [[MessyNessy89]], [[The Homeschoolers Aggregate]], [[Xeniph]], The Coalition (consisting of Facility J, Will O' Wisp, Wordfiles, ZorinXL), Zoey fanfic(??, lol am I biased here?) (including zoeyiswatching and opzoeyd)

'''Tier 3:''' [[Acrowleyorder]], [[Cassieiswatching]], [[Immant]], [[LonesomeOctober]], [[LordGreystoke422]], [[Paulmark18]]

'''Tier 4:''' [[lonelygirl362436]], [[The Flock]] (The Flock being Tier 4 with the condition that they keep it up to date themselves, the details of this can be hashed out later), [[Itscassie]], [[LonelyJew15]]

'''Tier 5:''' [[Maddison Atkins]], [[OpAphid]], [[Redearth88]]

Let me know your thoughts! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 16:46, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:I think they are more fair.  Definitely a better starting point for discussion.  I have no objections.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 17:05, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:No objections, Zoey. Let's do it!! --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 28:54, 26 February 2008 (EST)
:I concur. Although, some of the Tier 3 listings are currently being upkept as Tier 2s... Are they going to be expanded more? I still maintain my opinion that only Tier 5 videos should have transcripts, but since I seem to be the voice of the minority, I suppose we can expand it to two. (We do need to set a firm line, though.)
:I will also say that anything Tier 3 or above should get some actual content regarding the SERIES, and not solely the videos. I think if we can't get that together, it should bump it down a bit in the rankings.
::''Also, I think I should add, as I explained in the chat (and apparently neglected to do so above) my earlier listing was not meant to be definitive in any way, and was simply thrown together based on what little I knew of the series, and what content was available. I just wanted to put them out there for discussion.''
:Once the tiers get hashed out, we should archive the discussion and go on to discussions on how exactly to change each series page for the better. They '''all''' could stand some serious work. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:00, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:#When you say "consisting of...", does that mean we'll unify all sub-series on one page? i.e., have only one Cassie UGC page then, not separate *cassie* pages?
:#Have you checked whether any series has something special that'd bump them up, being featured in the Community Appreciation Week or something, for example?
:#Will we make The Flock Deal a general offer?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:24, 26 February 2008 (CST)
:I think Zoey's proposal is proably the fairest one I've seen so far. As someone who spends a lot of their time on the fanfic area of the LGPedia, and as a fan of many of the UGC series out there. I will say this: I think every three months or so there should be a place where people can state their case for why something should change tiers or not. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 27 February 2008 (EST)
:No objections on my end, Zoey. :)  And I really like that idea, FH14 -- who's to say every show is going to be the same forevermore?? -- --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 11:55, 27 February 2008 (CST)
:well, i wanted to try to get iris2009 page into tier 2, no admin besides Jay and Owen and TWj have ever touched it, my fans along with me have cared for the page..all i ask is to keep the 1 page...--[[User:Iris2009|TJ Marsh]] 21:38, 28 February 2008 (CST)
::I can see the reasoning behind a bump-up, especially since the Iris page hasn't gotten horribly over-blown. I can also see an argument for making it Tier 1. I dunno, I could go either way on this, to be honest. (If it does get bumped to Tier 2, I think the page is going to need some rearranging or something; half of the stuff in the introduction isn't really "intro".) I'll wait to see what other people think. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:03, 28 February 2008 (CST)
:::if its not too late, i would vote for iris2009 to be tier 2.  to be honest, though, there are a number of series currently listed in tier 1 that i would favor leaving a separate page for.  Those would probably be: [[Aaronbeast]] (he did multiple videos, and has been referenced by the creators in public talks), [[Breeiswaiting]] (this video was created by the creators, i am 99% sure), [[The Deacons (commenter)|The Deacons]] (because its a story of its own), [[Iris2009]] (multiple videos, subject of controversy over time), [[Kelseygirl15]] (possibly.  these are mostly spoofs, but there are a number of them), [[TWJaniak]] (because he is TWJ and a god of lg15 history).  Of the others i either didn't follow them and can't comment, or I believe the tier 1 designation is correct.  --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 16:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)
::::Can you back any of this up or elaborate on it?
::::Why do you want Iris on Tier 2, even though he himself wanted it deleted just last week? (Multiple videos is true for ''all'' series - otherwise, they wouldn't be series. And what is this controversy you reference, other than his constant claims to and attempts to become canon?
::::Where/when did the Creators reference Aaronbeast?
::::Can you prove Breeiswaiting was done by the Creators, or at least show us your evidence?
::::How is "a story of its own" notable, given that that is true for most fanfic?
::::Although I like Kelsey, the ground rules specifically state that singular videos without a connecting story arc do not count as fanfic series. There are plans for a "Notable fan videos" page where Kelsey's videos might find a place.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:18, 5 March 2008 (CST)

:::::Renegade:  I'll try.  
:::::1.  Iris shouldn't be the judge of where he should be, though his opinion should be considered.  Does he want to be deleted now, or just want one page?  And by controversy, yes, I mean his continuing attempts to claim canonhood.  Evidence of that is all over the Breeniverse, its noteworthy in my head for that.  People say lg15 was a "new art form," but iris is to me.  I know others might disagree.  Plus, I just like the guy.  Sue me.
:::::2.  In the FITC talk the creators gave in Toronto in April 2007, they referenced "the fan" who has created a series of videos as Daniel's brother.  I remember that one because I watched it for the first time recently.  I believe they mentioned that same basic thing at other conferences.  Does that along make Aaronbeast deserve his own page?  Maybe not, but I put it out there.
:::::3.  Breeiswaiting.  The breeiswaiting video was the first video response posted and accepted for "The Ceremony," (just a few hours later), and clearly shows where the ceremony was.  When Nikki Bower debuted a few weeks later, she made a number of attempts (there are forum posts) to get people to watch the Breeiswaiting video and suggested there was something at the ceremony location to find.  Then, when no one went, she went herself and found the box with the Watcher symbol and made a video about it.  She credited the breeiswaiting video for helping her find it on the forum.  It was only discovered a few months later that Nikki was being done in connection with Amanda.  I have never directly asked the C's if they created it.  Maybe if you or Zoey asked, they would confirm (or at least not deny it).
:::::4.  On the Deacons, I guess I meant it has enough meat to it be its own page. Plus, it was fanfic told thru the comments board, which was unique.  (And though it seemed obvious to me it wasn't canon, lots of people thought it might be)
:::::5.  Your suggestion as to Kelsey makes sense.
:::::If no one agrees with my suggestions, I'm happy to go with the flow, I just wanted to weigh in.
:::::--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 14:20, 5 March 2008 (CST)

:::::# Hmm. I guess a Tier 2 page could be used to warn the community about him not actually being canon xD Although I'm not sure how his other stuff links into Iris2009.
:::::# Well, being used as an example for all LG15 UGC is kinda notable. It'd be helpful if you could link me to video/transcript, but for now, I'd support Tier 2.
:::::# I see what you mean - that does look suspicious. Agreed for now.
:::::# That "plus" is what's notable, imo. It's either the only comment-board-based fanfic, or the only one I've heard of. Either way, not being video-based and yet still getting known is notable, imo.
::::::I'll update the Suggested Tiers list. Thanks for your input and help.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:59, 6 March 2008 (CST)

I hate to upset the applecart, but I have an opinion. (Doesn't everyone?) This is about CassieIsWatching, which is currently listed as a Tier 3. I believe that CassieIsWatching is a special exception, and should be Tier 4. It has done the following: achieved over 250,000 views on just 5 videos; inspired a multitude of Cassie fanfic (including ItsCassie, a Tier 4); inspired OpAphid, the former-official ARG of LG15 and current part of RE88 (a Tier 5); provided a launchpad for the aforementioned OpAphid, which 'gamejacked' CiW's mailbox and responded to its videos; attracted attention of a new audience and provided the majority of LG15.com's forum traffic during its run; historically significant; inspired BreeIsWaiting, which is presumed to have connections to the Creators;and finally, it is currently complete, with around 10 pages, and requires little effort to maintain (as it has ended long, long ago). Again, I don't want to upset matters--I'm not a regular LGPedia contributer--but I strongly believe that CiW should be Tier 4. --[[User:Rekidk|Rekidk]] 22:29, 28 February 2008 (CST)
:Sounds reasonable to me...but for the time being, I'm not even sure this will go through...I haven't checked with the propaganda department and the administration yet. (Just came home half an hour ago.)
:Any objections to bumping up CiW should the Revamp go through?
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:47, 2 March 2008 (CST)
:::I see no problem with bumping CiW up a notch . . . it wasn't just popular in its time but downright infamous. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 14:33, 2 March 2008 (CST)
:::No objections. --[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 15:57, 2 March 2008 (EST)
:I think you have a very valid point about CIW, and it is something I struggled with as coming up with my "proposed listings." The reason I personally decided against giving it a tier 4 listing was because I have been told countless times by people who played the game that the information we have is incomplete or inaccurate in many places. In my opinion, I think it would take some work by the people who are familiar with the series to get the pages accurate before we would want to work them into tier 4. It seems a little silly to me to expand upon pages with inaccurate information. HOWEVER, if we can find someone who is knowledgable, or is willing to do the research to become knowledgable enough to correct the inaccuracies and fill in the gaps, I agree, cassieiswatching definitely has a place on tier 4... maybe even tier 5 depending on just how much information we end up getting about it! --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 15:08, 2 March 2008 (CST)
: Not to upset matters, either, but if its fairly complete as is, I concur with Rekidk's views that CiW should be tier 4.  CiW has been very influential on the development of lg15 --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 16:16, 3 March 2008 (CST)

I agree to mantian the iris page myself, and re do what might need to be changed. ----TJ Marsh

:The Flock was listed as Tier 3, has a large number of pages, and was already well-maintained. Iris is listed as Tier 1 and is currently marked for deletetion on your own wish.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 08:27, 3 March 2008 (CST)

====Greg Mason====
I guess we need to have a discussion on Greg Mason (aka [[masonishappy]]). He's new, which is why I decided to flag it as a new subsection. He's growing in popularity, so he deserves a mention, at the very least, but should he get his own page? Discuss. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 12:39, 6 March 2008 (CST)
:Hmmm . . . I kinda like the idea of him getting his own page with just a list of videos, but no transcripts yet (I forget what Tier that would qualify under).  Later, after some time has passed, we can better judge where he should properly go, either up or down the ladder.  At least those are my thoughts, and I'm sure there'll be others 
::(But one thing's for sure - Greg's going to be good practice on how we decide to treat new fanfictions post-Revamp). --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 13:14, 6 March 2008 (CST)
:::I vote for him getting his own page, at least for now.  People should be coming to LGPedia whenever they wonder about a new promising series.  --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 13:25, 6 March 2008 (CST)
::::Works for me. I just wanted to get people's input on it. We'll have to make sure to put it on the revisit list, but for now I'll add it to Zoey's Tier 2 list, and I just put him on the Spin-offs page. (Obviously, in the unlikely even that he's canon, he'll need to be removed.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 13:50, 6 March 2008 (CST)

====Sofia's Diary====

As it's a popular web series that predates LG15 I think that it should be mentioned somewhere. If you're going to have an academic resource that focuses on one web series to at least briefly describe other web series seems logical. If we never mention any other web series but ones known to be related to LG15 and KM and LG15 and KM themselves then we seem to be creating something false that ignores other series that are part of the history of web series. - [[User:Journeymystery|Journeymystery]]
:It doesn't seem logical to me. Using an example given by someone else, if you had a Star Wars wiki, you wouldn't put a history of movie page on there. LGPedia is for LG produced series and it's derivatives, not an accurate history of every web series. That's what sites and pages like Wikipedia are for. We're not ignoring they exist, we merely have no need to acknowledge they do.[[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 22:35, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

I recognize that Sofia's Diary is a huge series, but we either need more information on that page or it shouldn't exist. (I can't even see why it should be covered/added to the spin-offs page. The series doesn't even really relate to KM or LG15 other than the fact that it's the same genre. We don't cover Quarterlife for the same reasons.) Discuss. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:40, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:I agree.  Perhaps we should just mention it in one of the historical LG15 articles, because I do think that little fact about it airing in Portugal in 2003 ''is'' noteworthy.  Mention it there and perhaps on the Bebo page (you know, what other series Bebo carries).  But yes, it's not LG15-related beyond that, and shouldn't have its own page.--[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:44, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:It shouldn't be added to the spinoffs page. However, a page like the ones for [[Greek]] and [[Laura]] might be good. However, if no one else sees any reason for the page's existance, I have no objections. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 17:44, 17 March 2008 (EST)

:If Sofia's Diary is an independent series with no connection to LG15 or KM, then it has no place on LGPedia.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:47, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:<small>P.S.: BAH, no conflicting, Pheon!</small>
:<small>P.P.S.: BAAAAAAAAaaaaAH, same goes for you, FH14!</small>
(BTW, in case people were wondering, I only posted this under here just incase I was wrong about it not relating to the series. You never can tell what can be considered a spin-off these days.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:51, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

::Hmm, I forgot about the GREEK and Laura pages.  Perhaps we can group all these non-LG-productions under one page, mentioning that they DO have a connection to the LG/KM shows simply because of actor/crew member, but since they aren't in the Breeniverse, they don't get much more than a blurb? --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:53, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:::Well, they ''are'' categorized under [[:Category:Outside projects|outside projects]]... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 16:56, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
::But if you look at all those pages, they're all blurbs!  Maybe it's just best to group them all under a big "Outside Projects" page . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:58, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

::On this very same page, we have argued that Quarterlife is not within the scope of LGPedia just because of a common actress. And now we're arguing that Greek is notable because of it?
::Do I even have to comment on the insanity of this, including how much it will confuse the Redearth/Maddison Atkins UGC/independence discussion?
::Star Wars is not the same thing as Indiana Jones. A Star Wars wiki does not have a page on Indiana Jones just because Harrison Ford played in both. Independent productions have no business on LGPedia. So if Sofia's Diary is neither part of what we call the Breeniverse, nor LG15-related UGC, the page should be deleted.
::And before somebody asks, yes, I do advocate the deletion of the Greek page, no I don't support the deletion of the Laura page, because Laura had both LG15's director and a cast member, ''and'' got coverage on Inside LG15. It is thus of certain behind-the-scenes notability.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 17:10, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

: I have to agree there's no connection between Sofia's Diary and lg15 and only strained logical reasons to include it here.  The only possible place it could be mentioned would be if we had a page on "web series", but really others series should be covered on wikipedia which does have a "Web series" page we could link to.  --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 19:51, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

::::The characters from KM have actually subscribed to Sofia's Diary.  Now, most likely they are watching it as fans of a show in a parallel universe but it is noteworthy.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:26, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::I don't think it's note-worthy because of that. The KM Characters went to see Disturbia and Enchanted -- but that doesn't warrant them having pages. Putting it that way makes it seem more it should go under advertising than anything else. What links does Sofia have to LG15 or the Breeniverse? No crossing over actors, or storylines. The only linking factor is Bebo -- but we don't have a page on Roommates just because both that and LG15 have posted videos on MySpace, for example. 
:::::Also, on the subject of Greek and Quarterlife, they should be just listed on a page titled "Other Projects", with a section for each of the cast that has done something notable, if it warrants more than a small mention on the actor's page. With Laura, as it has multiple links to LG15, I feel that it is fine to have a page of it's own.[[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 22:35, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:It seems that the majority here are in favor of deleting this page, and possibly figuring out another way to represent it in the future. Unless there are any serious objections to the page's deletion in 24 hours, I'll go ahead and remove it. --[[User:Zoey|Zoey]] 02:50, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::I object, but I seem to be in the minority.  I have copied the information over to Wikipedia.  Perhaps it will find a home there.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

====HOOBS====
I disagree with the Tier 1 listing, supporting Tier 2, on the following grounds:
#The Tier 1 listing reason is invalid - the fact that something is explained elsewhere is no reason not to include it in an encyclopedia - does Wikipedia not have a page on United States of a America, just because Encyclopædia Britannica already wrote about them? Does Merriam Webster's not list words on the basis that they're already explained on Wiktionary? If somebody comes to look up something from the Breeniverse, LGPedia is the primary destination - not the forums.
#HOOBS was recently [http://inside.lg15.com/2008/03/15/join-the-hymn-of-one-boarding-school/ mentioned on Inside LG15] - even if you argue being promoted on the official blog is not notable (wtf?), a mention on the official blog probably led to dozens of users trying to look it up on the pedia, so we should at least have a page for the moment, until the buzz dies down.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:05, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:Well, I don't have a problem with Tier 2ing it, I just figured 1 would be easier, since we'll need a decent amount of information for 2, and there are TONS of accounts associated with it. Do with it what you will. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:11, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:Tier 2 is fine with me too :) --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:13, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

:k, I'll add it to the [[LGPedia:UGC Tier List|preliminary list]] under 2 then.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:54, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

====The Coalition====
They were just featured on insidelg15today.  That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability.  Is a Tier bump warranted?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
:I see no problem with a Tier bump, but let's see what others think . . . . --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 20:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:No, in my opinion, for the following reasons: 
:#HOOBS was also featured on Inside LG15 and wasn't automatically bumped to 3. The information was duly noted on the list and will taken into consideration in the next re-evaluation.
:#Have you had a look at the current Coalition page? It's a link list. It's less than a Tier 2 page. It probably wouldn't even qualify as a Tier 1.5 page. You can't just go from that to elaborate page with an episode list and everything.
:#And this is the most important one, in my opinion: ''Everyone'' can submit content to Inside LG15. Sure, it's filtered, and as I mentioned above, this information will be recorded (in fact, I'll do it after submitting) and taken into consideration when the page has grown large enough to warrant a re-evaluation, or one is requested, but the fact remains that basically anyone can get his stuff on Inside (in fact, Amanda routinely asks in public for people to submit stuff), so while you are correct that it does boost its notability, it doesn't do this, at least in my opinion, enough to warrant going from a link-list to a full-blown superpage.
:Looking at the Coalition page, it doesn't look like anyone is actively caring for it. Taking that into account, it is unlikely the page will ever exceed the Tier 2 page ''we'' will have to create for it as part of the revamp. Should the page grow, should the series become more notable, then this post will, once its status is being evaluated, be taken into account. But in order to boost the page from Tier 2 to Tier 3, it should qualify as Tier 2 first.
:(As a sidenote, if you read and compare this post to previous ones, it's rather obvious it was not written by the Creators themselves - most likely, it was written by one of the ugc creators and sent to them with a request to post it.)
:(On a sidenote to the sidenote, should this happen increasingly often, we'll have to think about some sort of "inflation" for Inside posts. If all it takes to get posted is an e-mail, this kind of "endorsement" is practically worth nothing.)
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:39, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::Ren, just a heads up, it's not a link list anymore. I'm not sure why Immo added the links, because, as per previous discussion, all of the series were to be MERGED INTO ONE PAGE. (I even tagged the pages, only one of which has any significant amount of content, to be deleted.)
::On that note, Immo, I'd be much obliged if you could add series summaries on [[The Coalition]] page, and possibly links to relevant video accounts. I tried to myself, but the forums are only so helpful and I don't want to watch four whole series just to work on one page. Thanks! - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 21:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::So by now, we're discussing if we should bump up a page that consists only of headlines and an external link.
:::God I love this revamp.</sarcasm>
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:33, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

::::I think if you contact Amanda you'll find she was the one who reached out to theCoalition.  But aside from that I got an earful about how bad it makes the pedia look for people to see incomplete pages--that page there is linked from the inside and is basically a shell.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 23:03, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Well, you can't really blame Ren for that. It's a project I'm taking on. It was originally supposed to be a "test" page until we got to Phase 2, but now that it's out there, I'm working on getting it up ASAP. Like I said, if you could help get a summary or something, I'd be eternally grateful.
:::::(P.S. if you want to talk about "empty shells", look at the series pages you decided to link to from my Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 23:16, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:What provision is there in the guidelines for a "portal page" that links to 4 series that share elements?  Perhaps that would be a productive discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:27, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::I think the problem here is that the Coalition does not fit in with the current tier structure.  You have 4 interconnected but independent series with a vast array of videos and a lot of community support but very little pedia presence.  How should that be presented and how should the 4 series be interconnected to show the relationship.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 23:38, 18 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Anyone?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:04, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::The reason we decided to combine the series pages into one was because they are very much less known than other series, and no one's been updating any of the pages. We can't have pages floating around with absolutely no content on them (other than a brief "summary", although I think the summaries I came up with for the page are better than the ones on the series pages). So we figured, if the only content is a summary, why can't we combine them anyway? Honestly, the series themselves shouldn't be higher than a tier 2 individually, but they're not even at that currently.
:::I think the best way to go about working this is to have a summary of what, exactly, the Coalition is, and then a summary of each of the series below. I tried to do that myself, but seeing as I know next to nothing about the thing, it didn't turn out very well. Please, guys, discuss. We need some input on this. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:01, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::There are 4 series so they each should have a page.  The series are interconnected within the Coalition so that should have a page linking to each series.  As it currently stands my understaning and the discussion board on LG15.com indicates that the 4 Coalition series along with Redearth88 and the Maddison Atkins series all take place within the Red Territory so that needs a page linking to all 6 and any other series that decide to take place in the Red Territory.  The revamp needs to be modified to accommodate such a structure or you are simply defying logic for some arbitrary standard which is simply not how we have ever done things on LGPedia and I have been around since close to the beginning.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 19 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Just because there are four seperate series that we've agreed have enough significance to warrant a page doesn't mean that they each need their own pages. What exactly would we even put on these pages? As I've said, no one has been willing to update ANYTHING on the existing Coalition-related pages. I'm failing to see why we can't just combine them into one extensive page for the entirety of the Coalition. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 18:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::I fail to see why "the revamp needs to be modified" just because the creators of The Coalition can't get their shit together. Either they want to be known as one thing, The Coalition, then their individual pages are obsolete, or they want to be seen as independent series, then The Coalition is not a UGC profile page anyway, and thus not part of the revamp.
::::::You can't be both independent and dependent. Either they want to be seen as The Coalition, then they'll be The Coalition, or they don't. It was ''their'' decision to solicit Inside LG15 to link to [[The Coalition]] instead of independent pages. It was ''their'' decision to have them link to LGPedia, but not to care for their pages in the first place. And in fact, this is the perfect example for why we need the revamp - on one hand, they want to be all great "YAY WE'RE ON THE PEDIA!!!" - on the other hand, Facility J hadn't been touched since 30 October 2007 before this incident forced Shi upon it. So either they decide to be "The Coalition", then that and the fact that they don't give a fuck for their other pages is a good reason to just collapse them all into [[The Coalition]], or they want to be independent series, then they should stop linking and promoting [[The Coalition]], because then, [[The Coalition]] is ''not'' a UGC profile page that has a Tier rating, but a disambiguation page.
::::::Then again, given that this is blatantly obvious and you still claim we're "defying logic for some arbitrary standard", most likely you're just here to stirr up trouble in support for yet another of Immo's pet projects anyway.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:47, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::"The important and sole decisive criterion is notability."  Not how many pages currently exist, who maintains them or what is on them.  I think it's fair to say the larger the series, the less direct involvement the actual PMs have in their lgpedia pages.
:::::::# The Coalition is set up similar to RE88.  RE88 is the shared universe that 2 series, RE and MA take place in.  The Coalition is the shared universe that 4 series, FJ, WF, ZXL and WoW take place in.  
:::::::# The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos.
:::::::# They have a forum presence.
:::::::# FJ was a Community Appreciation Week winner.
:::::::# They were featured on insidelg15. (at Amanda's solicitation)  It also should be noted that only 2 series lonelyjew15 and theCoalition have been featured in their own posts outside of Community Appreciation Week.
:::::::# It features immersive interaction with members of the community.
:::::::# There are a high number of characters including live action characters.
:::::::# Producing puzzles, drops and most recently a live event qualifies as a complicated production.

:::::::It meets just about every criteria set forth.  My question is this, what other criteria listed would it have to meet to warrant a tier bump?  But just for practical purposes I can't even begin to imagine how you can represent it all on one page.  If you can, more power to you.  I look forward to the end result.

:::::::Lastly I have some involvement with alot of UGC and its unfair that they might get misrepresented here because of an association with me.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 02:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::: Ren, I am only trying to help explain this to you because it appears that the people trying to make the guidelines have very little direct understanding of the way the shows are structured.  I for one am trying to help and any accusation to the contrary is totally uncalled for. On the blog we have portals for these series and as a result I am reasonably familiar with the structure.  There are always elements that are "up in the air" but as they are resolved they will be input into LGPedia. If you current structure cannot accommodate such a simple situation then clearly it is fatally flawed and should be revised.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:49, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Immo, that's all nice and well, but you yourself provide the counter-arguments on the double - as you quoted, "The important and sole decisive criterion is notability." - and as you never failed to mention, The Flock is kept tidily arranged by your fans, always up to date, with a whole lot of pages. So, if a series that is, by your own recounts, vastly smaller than The Coalition in its entirety has enough fans to keep it's section up to date and nicely arranged, would it not be logical to assume that four series combined, one giant superuniverse, would have enough fanpower to do the same?
:::::::Let me spare you the suspense and tell you right away: That is not the case. Before Shiori went on touch the pages ''because'' The Coalition was mentioned on Inside, nobody had touched them for months. Which means, not only does nobody care for The Coalition on the pedia, but the only updates it gets are from non-fans that are done due to outside pressure, not because of any personal wish to update the pages.
:::::::The Coalition does not have to meet any other criteria as any other series - notability. Yes, you do provide a lot of achievements and "hits" on the criteria list - a compelling list, I must admit. But unfortunately, the one thing that boosted you and helped you all the way up last time, is stabbing you in the back and dragging you down this time - the participation of series fans on LGPedia. Redearth, Maddison Atkins, LJ15, and, as you yourself noted often, ''The Flock'' all have an active fan presence on LGPedia. Like I said, your list is compelling. But, let me try to explain the dilemma with this example: You can have the fanciest restaurant in town, the finest food, a 5-star-cook, mahogany seats and gold cutlery - that's worth ''nothing'' if no one comes to eat.
:::::::You have shown that The Coalition is a giant production that has apparently a whole lot of stuff going on, and if there was any sign pedia pages to the extend of RE or MA would be desired, we'd surely bump it up to Tier 4 or 5, if only to handle the informational load. But said informational load is exactly the problem. According to our record, ''nobody cares for The Coalition on LGPedia''. My point is not that The Coalition would not be qualified for that amount of pages in theory. My point is that practically, it is utterly and entirely pointless to create roughly 200 new pages for The Coalition, if the fans of The Coalition don't even seem to care for the four main sites. Or, put otherwise, if nobody even reads the four main pages, why should we create 200 other pages no one reads?
:::::::I see your point. I see that The Coalition seems to be a gigantic production. But the fact that something is made big does not automatically mean it hits with a large number of fans, and from our point of view, even if there are a large number of fans, these fans do not in the slightest bit seem to be interested to read about The Coalition on LGPedia.
:::::::The only person currently caring for The Coalition pages (Shiori) is actively going around trying to find knowledgable people, because she has no idea of the series. So, I see and acknowledge your giant lists of facts, but I ask four questions back: Who will read these pages once they're created? Where are these people now and why are they not reading? Where are the people who will create all these pages? And, lastly, a familiar one: Who will care for all these pages once they were created?
:::::::Remember how last time, I counted up the separate portal views of the RE88 universe against the Flock's? This time, it works the other way round! The Flock ''alone'' has more portal views than all four of the Coalition together. Despite the gigantic production, despite live events, forum sections and everything, ''nobody cares''.
:::::::Like I said, I acknowledge your list. It is impressive, and it ''would'' place The Coalition in the higher Tiers, would it have active fans. But from a pedian's point of view, that is simply not the case. Nobody touched the pages for three to six months. Less people checked out four series together than the Flock alone. Even if there ''is'' a larger group of fans outside of LGPedia, it seems to have no interest in The Coalition pedia pages ''at all''. So even if we wanted to bump up the series by revamp consideration, simple general pedia considerations speak against it - why create 200 pages no one is going to read?
----
:::::::In addition, as we have touched above, there seems to be sort of "identity crisis" problem - are these series all together one complex "The Coalition", or do they insist on being individual series? You likened The Coalition to the RE Universe. That may be right. But we did not assess the RE Universe as a whole, but OpAphid, RE88 and Maddison Atkins each on their own. So if The Coalition series insist on being independent, then Will O' Wisp and Worldfiles are as good as doomed (they don't even have a single video link), ZorinXL would qualify for two if the video view numbers support a certain viewership, and Facility J would probably get three due to community notability vs. size. Seeing the portal, it might get an organizational 4 bump to create a separate "List of Facility J links" or something, and might then keep its video pages just because it'd take more effort to delete them than to keep them. But that's it.

:::::::So, especially ''because'' your list is compelling, before we can decide whether a Tier bump is warranted or not, the following questions need to be answered:
:::::::#Is The Coalition one series, or are the 4 parts independent series? If they are independent series, the series will be judged independently, as it has happened in Redearth's universe.
:::::::#Who is going to read the created pages? How many users are interested in them?
:::::::#Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created? (Especially given that you pointed out the vast amount of content The Coalition technically has.)
:::::::#Who is going to maintain these pages? With an expansion like this, you can't just call your army, have them create all pages, and then leave us alone with the work. Just like other series have dedicated help from the fangroups, we ''will'' need people that look after these pages, even if they only do it on normal pedia basis, not under special regulations.

:::::::Once more, in the end: Your list (if it is verifiable) is indeed impressive and compelling. But right now, from my current point of view, a Tier bump is still not warranted, because the way The Coalition's pages have been treated and visited in the past suggests that barely anyone is interested in The Coalition as a whole, and the little interest there is is concentrated on Facility J - thus, ultimately, suggesting a certain amount of notability for its production size, but low notability as an ARG in the community. And a note along the lines of "Although incredibly elaborate, The Coalition failed to draw user attention." does not need 200 pages.
:::::::Just one.
:::::::If there is indeed a large, secret desire to have a full-blown Coalition presence on LGPedia, then we will have to discuss separately how this presence can be created in the first place, how it will be maintained, and how we can guarantee a sustained interest in it. If there is a larger part of the community interested in having all these pages, then your list greatly supports creating them all. But it is of no use for either side if we start a large project to create 200 pages for The Coalition, only to have them all ignored a week afterwards. And current data suggests that exactly that would happen.
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::<small>Not proofread.</small>

:::::::::<li>At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility.  Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page.  Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.
:::::::::<li>There is a chicken and egg factor to theC.  I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested.  Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia.  There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.
:::::::::<li>There's absolutely no identity crisis.  If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.
:::::::::<li>You can do this in 3-5 pages.  I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point.  You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list.  Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series.  One column for characters and one for a video list.
:::::::::<li>I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 16:14, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::::::It is usually good tone to append new comments to the end of the discussion, not add them in the middle. The indention identifies which post is being replied to.
::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|At the end of the day what we are talking about it eligibility.  Based on the notability criteria they are eligible for more than one page.  Eligibility means pages are allowed to be created not that they have to be.}}
::::::::::Given the extreme lack of user interest on LGPedia, there is at least a shadow of doubt over their eligibility. As I posted above, "Where are these users now? If there exists an interest in Coalition pedia pages, why are the existing ones not maintained and where no more created?" They may be notable for their production value, but so far, it looks like there is no user interest. And if the users don't care, it'd be a lot more efficient to just note the production value on a single page.
::::::::::The Revamp does not replace common LGPedia procedures - if no one's going to read a page, there's no need to keep it.

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There is a chicken and egg factor to theC.  I think the reason why no one tackled the pages is because it's an immense job but if there were pages it would be an great help to get new people interested.  Right now there is a thread in the forum about putting together a FAQ, I would hope that info eventually makes it over to the lgpedia.  There is info there in the forum right now that could but only allowing one page does not allow the entry to potentially grow.}}
::::::::::Well, if The Coalition is supposed to stay, these pages will ''all'' have to be updated and maintained. So I fail to see how the fact that nobody wants to do all the work is a point ''for'' bumping up.

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|There's absolutely no identity crisis.  If anything there is more crossover between the 4 series than there has been between RE and MA.}}
::::::::::Well then, direct question: Is the Coalition one series to be judged, or is it a universe of sorts in which four independent series coexist and cross over?

::::::::::{{quote|Immortal1|You can do this in 3-5 pages.  I don't feel transcripts are necessary nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point.  You can keep the current page that shiori did and have another page for characters and one other for a video list.  Or you can have basically what's there now and keep one 2 column page for each series.  One column for characters and one for a video list. [...] I agree 200 pages are not necessary but one is inadequate.}}
::::::::::As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...''however'' - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, ''and'' there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance.
::::::::::If you can, to my question above, reply that The Coalition is one series, and that thus, your list at the top applies, ''and'' we can find a group of people that is knowledgable on the subject that volunteers to create and or bring the pages up to date, then I will support a bump of the series The Coalition to Tier 4 and work out a small list of pages for it with you, although I would also file a request for re-evaluation in two months or so, to see if these newly generated pages are actually used, or just the next generation of dead Coalition pages.
::::::::::However, if your answer is that all four series are independent series within the same universe, as RE88 and MA are, then, just as we did with MA and RE, they will be evaluated individually, and since your list at the top cumulates their achievements, it does not apply.
::::::::::The latter case might lead to a solution where Facility J stays as a Tier 2 or 3 series, and its page containes an "Other series within the Coalition universe" section that points out/sums up the others, with the series names redirecting to that section.

::::::::::Under the conditions your list requires (that The Coalition is to be judged as a whole), I agree it suggests a notable production value. But notability alone does not automatically mean "so notable it needs multiple pages". All series listed on the pedia after the revamp are notable. The problem with this entire Coalition thing is comparison: On one hand, you yourself paint the Coalition as vastly bigger than The Flock. On the other hand, its pedia presence and interest in that presence is vastly smaller than the Flock's. To quote the Tier 4 description, "Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page." - so even ''if'' somebody takes us up on the Flock deal, on an objective view, The Flock is of Tier 3 notability. It just has a lot of beautiful pages that'd be a shame to kill. Point being, if The Flock is Tier 3/4, and The Coalition is below that, where do you want to bump it? Tier 2.5? You fought hard in the Flock discussion to have your view count acknowledged. When your single series alone has more portal views than an entire universe together, would you find it fair to have them on the same Tier as you? Especially when half of them don't even have video lists? When the character pages are 11 months outdated?
::::::::::I am assuming good faith. I do not assume you lie with anything you say in your list. Thus, you can consider it proven that the Coalition as a whole is a gigantic production. What's missing at the moment is proof that the Coalition actually is a "whole", and that that whole, gigantic production actually has users interested in it.
:::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::I do not think we are talking about 200 pages.  We are talking about a basic structure with 5 pages. One page for each series and then one portal page for The Coalition.  Beyond that we need to discuss each series on its own merit.  For example Facility J has a bulk of existing pages that are part of an important historical record. On the other hand Worldfiles might be good with a single page for now.  The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic.  If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets.  We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.  The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard.  We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia.  If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 04:59, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::::::::Immo said "The Coalition collectively has almost 150 videos." - add to that categories, character pages, actor pages, lists, summaries etc. for four series, you come out at roughly 200 pages. I think your comment shows clearly the problem with this discussion as a whole: You may see the UGC side of things, and realize when we're lacking important information or assuming less of a series than it is, but you have no idea how much work maintaining any given series with multiple pages is, and you have no idea how much work some suggestions of you create.
::::::::::::As I have mentioned above, whether we have to assess each series independently depends on their decision if they want to be seen as The Coalition, or as independent series. It's up to them how they'll be analyzed.

::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The point is that looking at this in terms of tiers defies logic.  If this revamp is going to gut the historical record then I will totally oppose its implementation in all facets.  We need to show respect for series that have been created by fans and for what already exists on the pedia.}}
::::::::::::I think you're the point. Then again, I think you're missing the point on purpose, so it's not all that surprising. Still, in the interest of discussion, I will say two things: 1. I myself was the one saying Facility J might be bumped to Tier 4 due to the volume of information. Do not accuse me of trying to ruthlessly mow down any page I can find if I suggested the exact opposite in the post right above you. 2. And that's the important point: ''What historicaly record?'' Have you read my post at all? The problem with The Coalition is that there is basically ''nothing''. Of the 59 links on the Facility J portal, only ''16'' are internal. Everything else leads to external source. Of these 16 internal links, 12 link to video pages. The other four remaining pages are [[Everything You Need To Play Facility J]], last updated on 30 October 2007, [[Mysterious Young Lady]], [[WalterDW]] and [[TravelerJ19]], all of whose ''content'' was last updated '''''11 months ago''''' (there were edits afterwards, but they only changed whitespace or categories, not the page content itself).
::::::::::::Let me repeat that, so it sinks in: Of the only four actual general series pages of Facility J on LGPedia, 25% have not been updated for five months, 75% have not been updated for almost a year. ''That'' is the "historical record" we're speaking of. Almost nothing, and the few "almost" there is, hopelessly outdated and neglected. Even if we didn't delete the pages, they'd be of no use to anyone. And truth to be told, the fact that all Facility J character pages in existence on LGPedia have not exceeded one paragraph for ''almost a year'' is the greatest argument ''for'' collapsing the pages I've seen so far - because three paragraphs in a section aren't all that much.

::::::::::::{{quote|modelmotion|The revamp cannot become an attempt to sanitize the pedia of anything that does not fit some arbitrary standard.  We need flexibility and creativity to cope with the complexities of each series/ARG and most importantly we need respect for those who have strived to document these series on LGPedia.  If you cannot dedicate yourself to that effort this revamp should be considered dead on arrival and I do not believe that serves any ones best interest.}}
::::::::::::Again with the polemic and groundless attacks...well, I think I've shown above in great detail and with many hard facts (instead of random populist rambling) why exactly there is no content we could even base a Tier bump on (because this is what we're ''actually'' talking about - whether The Coalition could be Tier bumped or not; not your personal liking of the revamp). If you have a problem with my argumentation, if you see a logical flaw in it, feel free to reply with counter-facts or point out the flaw. If you just want to reply with another string of random rephrasings of "modelmotion no like teh revamp", please open a "Modelmotions thoughts on the revamp" section below, so Immo and I can actually discuss this on a grown up level.
:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:(Ignoring almost every comment): If we do decide to go with seperate pages for the Coalition content, we ''will not'' be maintaining anything more than a summary and, perhaps, external links. We '''will not''' have any other content on these series pages, such as video lists or character information, since they simply don't have the fanbase willing to upkeep the pages enough. (This element is not up for negotiation, and is based solely on the hypothetical that the pages are not merged into the larger Coalition page.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::(p.s. Sorry if that came off harsh or mean or anything; I think the whole fanfic revamp is starting to take a toll on my patience. Anyway, that doesn't change the facts of my argument, though. We really shouldn't have anything other than an in-depth summary, maybe an image, and external links on the individual series pages if they stick around, simply because of the lack of anyone willing to help. Basically, the pages should be treated as Tier 2.) - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 10:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

::Shi, I hate to do this, but there is absolutely no basis for that statement, and you are in no position to pre-emptively decide what is negotiable and what is not. On what Tier a page ends up and how many pages a Tier 4 page needs is decided by ''discussion'' and careful consideration of the current situation. Period. I agree, as I have outlined in the comment you ''admittedly ignored'', that each Coalition section on its own does not warrant more than one page, if at all. (Exception being FJ for organizational purposes.) But that is our ''opinion'' and the opinions of others have at least to be heard before a decision is made. Please refrain from such posts in the future, as they are no different from the other side's "THE REVAMP SUCKS! THE REVAMP SUCKS!" posts and not helping this discussion.
----
::Given that you knew from chat I was replying, I find it rather impolite to purposefully insert an editing conflict. Anyway, to reply to your addition: ''Been said.'' Basically, you're repeating what I said above, only less elaborate. And while I do like having support on my side, it'd help us more if you'd elaborate more and found your opinion with facts instead of violently denying pages by default.
::Your opinion is fine. The problem with opinions is, everybody has one. Whether they are founded on facts (like Immo's and mine) or just unsourced rambling (like yours and model's) decides whether they're of any value to this discussion or not. Please do not post like that again. It's not helping.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 11:12, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
:::: Let's start the fuckin' revamp already!  This is insane. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 11:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Milo...[[User talk:Zoey|click here]], try your luck. According to schedule, we should've started three weeks ago.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::One reasonable approach would be to leave all the historical pages intact for now.  Then add a new page for each of the 4 series going forward with a link to the historical portal pages.  Then we could build out the main Coalition page with links to the 4 new series pages  so it would essentially become a portal for the "coalition territory".  This would allow the revamp to go forward quickly while preserving a lot of history. I must also say that to support this revamp in any way requires putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery.  It would be nice to see that there is an honest and true comittment to preserving the historical record of ALL community created videos that are covered on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:19, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::-_^ We are not a museum. If a series was historically significant, like CiW or OpAphid, it will be archived, but the pedia is not an archive for every LG15-related fan video ever to have existed. As for your "reasonable approach" - what's reasonable about doing the exact opposite of what we're trying to do? We're calling it "revamp" because we're trying to go from the old, broken structure to the new, better structure. Keeping the old and broken stuff around is not part of that concept. And these "historic records" you keep talking about - the only thing "historic" about the Coalition pages is the date when a fan last edited them. The only reason those pages got any activity recently was because outside posts basically forced Shiori to do some work. 11 months outdated is historic alright. But it's not worth keeping around.
:::::::::As for "putting a LOT of trust in those doing the surgery" - you could, of course, stop whining and actually help. If you, instead of keeping to go on and on about how the revamp sucks, actually volunteered to write the new Coalition pages, then you could yourself make sure no vital details get lost in time. After all, it was the Coalition's decision to let their pages become a prime example of why the revamp is necessary - not ours.
:::::::::Replying to random whining and baseless accusations isn't exactly hard, so if you feel like keeping that up, whatever. But if you're ''actually'' interested in what happens to this series, you might want to join the factual discussion and offer your help instead. After all, we all admit that we have no Coalition background, and would very much like to have a knowledgable person help us with that section's revamp.

:::::::::Just to reiterate that point: The hopeless outdatedness of the Coalition's pages is a prime example of why the revamp was initiated in the first place. Random pages created by single users, forgotten and left to rot and outdate. Go and ask the Coalition why they didn't care for their pages - whatever the answer is, it is the reason we are here today, and it is the reason why these pages will not continue to exist in their current form. If all fan pages on LGPedia had been kept clean and up to date, this revamp wouldn't happen. You complain about the revamp? Don't complain to us. Complain to whoever had the smart idea to create pages for the Coalition, and then said "fuck it" and left, making it necessary to re-organize his work.
:::::::::You want ''us'' to preserve the historic records of the Coalition? If they are so important, ''why does nobody from the Coalition care for them?''
::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:10, 20 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::::::To say that Facility J is not part of our history show a lack of understanding of our history.  Throwing out random insults just shows a lack of respect. Ren, you are not the dictator if LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::::::To say that I suggested Facility J is not part of your "history" shows a lack of understanding of my post as a whole. I suggest re-reading it before you start the whining and random insults again.
::::::::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::::::<small>Of course, then you'd have to realize that the 11-months-outdated pages I referred to, for example, were FJ's character pages, meaning FJ was actually my prime example of your history...and that would've fucked up the basis for your post. So yeah, I guess from your point of view, it's probably better not to understand the post. Looks bad to insult me without at least a make-believe basis.</small>

:::::::::I'm not quite sure where to put this, so I'll just plop it here. mm, I appreciate your addition of summaries for all of the series (seriously, roxor), but why are they being given explicit summary pages, as opposed to being put on the main series pages? I'm just genuinely confused... - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 11:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Let us face reality here.  Because the Cs failed to deliver the web site that promoted community videos a lot of people have left the site.  It is going to take time to rebuild.  That is just the reality we have to deal with but if you want to blame anyone for that blame Miles.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 13:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
----
I like the new Coalition page, I must say. However, it generates two points to be talked about:
#If it took us one or two days of discussion just to convince model and Immo to update a single page, on what grounds would we assume newly created pages would not go unmaintained immediately?
#The portal quite clearly says "The Coalition is a set of four user-generated series" - that implies each individual series is, although they may interact, independent from the other ones. Which, as per logic and common sense, as well as per the precedent set by the evaluation of RE and MA, means we'd have to evaluate individually. That makes multiple points of Immo's list from the beginning void, for example the video count.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 17:45, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

:I think this is where modelmotion's use of guidelines versus rules can apply here. They are all independent series, but The Coalition as a whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and all are notable enough in the community to deserve the pages that have been created. This is why applying a hard set of rules to each series can be an issue. The Coalition is unique in that, while independent, the group is referred to as The Coalition, and each series is known to be a part of it. I see no problem with the pages that have been created. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 19:41, 21 March 2008 (EST)

::That has nothing to do with vocabulary, it's just a question of what has to be evaluated. If they insist on being independent, then it it not fair towards all the other series to use their cumulative assets to weigh them. If they insist on being one series, it is not fair towards the other series to give them the space of four to five series.
::Basically, what you're suggesting is the same if we summed up all Cassie and Cassie-related series, used Cassie UGC as one giant thing to compare to everything else, decided it should be Tier 5 because it's huge, and after the decision treated series like [[Cassieresurrection]] all individually as Tier 5 material, on par with Redearth and OpAphid, just because they cheated through cumulative evaluation.
::I have no problem with the idea of evaluating The Coalition has a whole. But then they have to accept that any Tier and any page space will only be allotted to ''The Coalition'', the UGC that was evaluated, and not Facility J, Will O' Wisp, Worldfiles and Zarin XL.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far. Even looked at separately, each series would stand on its own if notability is the key, as people who follow one series in The Coalition usually follow all now. I do not think it is unfair to other series for the summary pages that have been created for The Coalition series to stay.
::::It is also important to note that while they are independent, they are together as The Coalition. So, while each can be looked at separately, I don't think it would be right to do so. They need to be shown separately and together, a complication other series do not have, and I think the current pages The Coalition has gives them that now. With the colliding storylines and universes, the series cannot be looked at separately, and I think the pedia would be incomplete without the current pages that show how each are independent AND how each are interacting with the other stories.
::::The current pages The Coalition has seems to do the trick. I think keeping them there should be enough. - [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:24 March 21 (EST)
:::::As a body of work it seems intuitively obvious that The Coalition as a whole should be treated as Tier 5. That would simply leave it up to fans to decide how to build out LGPedia.  In the short run I do not see there being enough fan support to actually create transcripts for the videos so I do not see that as a problem.  Perhaps we could consider it as "Tier 5 Lite" where fans of the series would have an "option" to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening. The fact that these shows have a heavy ARG influence which requires that the PMs stay behind the curtain and hence are unable to contribute to this discussion should also be taken into consideration.  I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level.  Rather, the tier simply creates an upper limit to the degree the LGPedia pages can be built out for that series.  Additionally, whatever level the fans choose to build out the site should be sustainable and that will probably take a little guidance from the admins. But the bottom line is that The Coalition based on the dedication and professionalism of the series producers and the body of work they have already produced deserve the "ability" to build out their LGPedia presence to the Tier 5 level if they can in the longer term muster the resources to do it.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 22:21, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::I know I said I was going to stay out of this, but I'm going to make two points. One: as mm said "'''I also do not think it should be mandatory for a tier to build out its LGPedia presence to the full ability of that tier level.'''" I can't agree with this more; and it bugs the crap out of me when ''some'' people seem to think that's the case... (Could we maybe, perhaps, add something to this effect in the Tier listing?) Second, I don't know that the Coalition, even if it had the fanbase willing to edit its Pedia pages, it is deserving of Tier 5. I'd go for 4, but 5 seems like it might be stretching it. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 09:50, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::Okay, I've read this for awhile now (when a discussion's THIS long, it takes a while to understand what everyone has said), so I guess I'm commenting on a whole.  From what has been said so far . . . it just makes sense that The Coaltion should be Tier 4.  I mean, here's that Tier's very definition: ''Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some '''subjective''' or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page. (An example would be that a series is rather small in notability, but has a high number of episodes, so that a separate list of videos makes more sense.)''  If anything, this discussion has shown that whatever we decide, it's going to be subjective.

:::::::From what I know (and unfortunately, I don't follow the Coalition either, so my knowledge comes from its page and this discussion), the Coalition specializes on inter-connectivity and cross-over-ness.  So to split the series into four simply would not make sense (imagine a reader comes to visit the Pedia and finds some random page(s) devoted to Faculty J, only to find out its part of "the Coaltion," and then finding nothing more than a generalized list of the other series.  One word, ''"Wha?"'')  Then again, I've read that people aren't so hot about unifying the four series into one Coalition page, so why don't we allow '''four''' basic pages -- one for each series.  This would give each series the benefits of a Tier 3 page -- a comprehensive one, one that includes a more detailed plot outline, episode lists, characters, and '''the info that they are related to the other three series''' under a greater "Coalition" universe (shoot, you can even include how they are all under the "Red Territory" as well).  It may have been forgotten, but those in favor of the Coalition to have a higher Tiering ''have said multiple times'' that they don't think character pages, transcripts, actor pages, etc are necessary at this point.  If that be the case, I see no problem maintaining this small number of pages (Categories aside, it'll probably stay relatively small).

:::::::If the pages are kept relatively current, and fans of theC feel that they need a unifying fifth page devoted to how the series cross-over and inter-connect, then I see no problem why they can't request one when we start our process of re-evaluating the Tiers in the months after the Revamp is finally over.  If, however, they remain skeleton-pages, then I ''also'' see no problem in them getting re-evaluating into a single Tier 3 page devoted to "the Coalition" as a whole.  For those who are pointing out that fans must have some responsibility regarding the coverage the series gets, this should be satisfactory enough.

:::::::'''Oh, side note:''' I do agree with Shiori - I too must oppose with the notion that series aren't necessarily required to reach the full potential of their assigned Tier.  If this were, say TVRage, where it is assumed that ''all'' TV shows are asked to eventually work their way to an entry that contains summaries, episode lists, reviews, character lists -- shoot -- even summaries in at least one foreign language, then this would make sense.  But for anyone who visits TVRage, many shows remain incomplete by their own process (and they have TONS of editors).  Not only would it be impossible and ridiculous to try and get episode lists, character pages, etc, etc for shows as small as lonelydude15, but just imagine having the Flock, whatever Tier that ended up in (I forget), not fullfilling their Tier requirements - it would only lead to ''another'' lengthy discussion (and eventually fighting and bickering).
::::::::Well, those are my thoughts on the matter.  I tried to find what both sides would be willing to compromise on, but if there really is something that you find absolutely inexcusable, then please, feel free to disect and discuss away.  --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:46, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
The argument for Tier 5 would be that it offers maximum flexibility to both preserve the historical record (Facility J transcripts, etc.) where it is deemed relevant.  It would also allow a portal structure for the 4 series going forward with the Coalition page being the "homepage."  Some would say that this would leave LGpedia looking incomplete but I personally cannot see any wisdom deleting information when in fact its in the best interest of LGPedia and users to build out this series especially with up to date character pages.  Perhaps the real question we should be asking is what can we do to draw fans of the shows back into participating in LGPedia?  It has been a very difficult year for "community videos" but my gut feeling is that the tide is beginning to turn.  I also believe that those who participate will be more than willing to work with admins to prevent random page sprawl and unnecessary pages.  Remember, we the viewers and the users of LGPedia are the ones who benefit from the series and LGPedia working together.  The professionalism of the Coalition series and their long term presence on LG15.com make it worth while to restructure the Coalition pages in a way that would encourage future expansion.  Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia. If I am wrong then the admins can simply step in as they would with the RE88 universe or the LG15 universe.  The reality is however that in the short term even with Tier 5 status the LGPedia presence of the Coalition will most likely remain understated but hey, at least they know we love and respect them for what they do. I am pretty sure Miles would back up everything I am saying here because there has been noone more vocal about the importance of this type of series than him. But hey if you doubt me, why dont you ask him?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:11, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
:Pheon, I think you wrote your comments at the same time as I was writing mine.  I think we are largely on the same page with just a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:22, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

What I see here is Renegade, in his effort to win a debate, totally disrespecting the pms behind the Coalition and their work. Nobody cares? Whatever. I'd considered lending a hand to this pedia, but I don't think I'm quite pompous enough.

:Excuse me while I not care for unfounded anonymous allegations (which weren't even posted in a fitting section).
:'''virginian:''' "I am saying that each is independent, and that each is notable enough in the community to be alloted the summary pages that have been created so far." - if you can prove that, fine. So far, I'm just seeing that, ZorinXL for example, did not have a significant update since 18 November 2007, until they forced Shiori (a non-fan) to update the page through the Inside post. Had the Inside post not have happened, the page would ''still'' be basically in the same state it was created in 5 months ago. The page has a view count of 202, of which two dozen are probably Shiori's from the content update, and one dozen is mine from frequent checks during this discussion. Let us be generous and say 180 "real" views. That's 36 views per month, or just over 1 page view a day since its inception. And basically no voluntary content update. Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that, if that series was really so notable and so many people were interested in it, nobody would touch the page voluntarily within five months.
:Did I mention it the other two don't even have video lists?
:'''model:''' "Basically I simply trust the Coalition and its viewers to do the right thing in terms of LGPedia." - same answer as above. With that track record, the only thing I trust them to do, pedia-wise, is to ignore it.
:Now, sadly/funnily, I anticipated how this discussion would go, and already prepared the rest of my post right after posting my previous one:
:[[Image:Coalition system.png|800px|none|thumb|Click here if you have trouble understanding why the Coalition Evaluation System is unacceptable.]]
:Addendum: I am fully aware I did not reply to specific sub-parts of your posts; I did not do this because I am of the opinion that your posts are assuming wrong premises - the image above details quite well why the desired Coalition System is unacceptable, and, as such, any argument for it is wasted. In addition, personal opinions of the like that all of the Coalition independently should be Tier 5 are duly acknowledged, but ultimately irrelevant if you don't specify ''why'' that should be the case with hard facts.
:Immo made a very compelling list for the Coalition, and if the Coalition wants to/will be listed as a whole, that list will help it a great deal. If you want to make a case for each series individually, follow his lead.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:43, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::This discussion was already well on the way before the insideLG15 post.  There has been an enormous amount of community activity regarding the Coalition in the last few months.  Yes there have been a lot of changes and divisions in the community but one thing we all agree on is that LGPedia is the best option we have for a pedia to cover all the "community videos" fairly in and in line with their presence in the larger community. I think the goal here is to create a structure that can allow us to move forward and at the same time respect our history.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 20:32, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Wow, Renegade, that there is an awesome chart, and it looks like you spent a lot of time on it. I am sorry that the argument is irrelevant to The Coalition. The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole. As said before, The Coalition is unique in this respect and requires unique consideration.
::::As I have said, I see no problem with keeping the great pages that modelmotion created and The Coalition pages. I will let others debate the expansion in respect to these tiers.
::::I think I have presented my points, and it appears discussion is getting redundant. When viewed by all the admin, I think my case proves itself. Thank you for the discussion Renegade. I would have refuted the Cassie point earlier if I had realized you were going to spend so much time on it. For that I am sorry.--[[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 22:25, 22 March (EST)

:::::Thank you very much, you just sealed my case.
:::::"The Cassie UCG are not working together on interconnected and colliding storylines that have both independent and connected components that require knowledge of each series and the interactions as a whole." - thus, ''by your very own definition'', the 4 subparts of The Coalition are ''not'' independent. As per the precedent set by any other series listing on the pedia, and the reinforcement of said precedent by last year's unification of the Brother, Tachyon and OpAphid lines, the 4 Coalition parts are therefore ''not'' eligible for independent listings as series.

:::::The description you give is valid for ''any'' vlog character of any series. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Jonas, an LJ15 character, a Flock girl, whatever. All of them have their independent parts (Taylor's soccer blogs and Sarah's whoring in Zavalla come to mind, or Gemma's random tales of Londonian things), but all of their stories are interwebbed with the main series and cannot fully be grasped without them. There are no separate series listings for Jonas, Bree, Anne Frank, Peterbeast or Betz. Thus, if that is your definition of the connection of the Coalition, then each Coalition part is akin to characters in other series.
:::::(And before you contest with "multiple characters" - Bree and Daniel as well as Sarah and Taylor originally vlogged from the same account - multiple people from the same account does not automatically make that account an independent series.)

:::::Your choice which way you paddle - backpaddle, state they're independent from each other, then the diagram applies, and in order for the Revamp to be fair for everyone, they have to be evaluated independently from each other. Agree they depend on each other, then they're automatically and logically not independent and will be treated as parts of one UGC object. (If you wish to edit The Coalition after the fact to express how unique it is, I will certainly not stop you.)


:::::@model:  {{quote|up there|The Coalition<br><br>They were just featured on insidelg15today. That kind of support/endorsement from the Creators certainly effects notability. Is a Tier bump warranted?--Immortal1 19:37, 18 March 2008 (CDT)}}
:::::Don't lie, it doesn't help your position. The Inside post started this discussion.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:54, 22 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::It is not a like to tell the truth.  All I have stated here is my recollection of the events as they happened.  If you have something productive to add to the discussion then please do so.  Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 01:38, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::lol. Sucks when the counter-evidence is right on the same page, eh? Kinda ironic how ''you'' ask for "something productive", but meh, whatever.
:::::::::Anyway, what we who actually discussed (Immo and me) talked about was Tier ''4''. And that only if we go for Coalition as a whole. I'm still waiting for some potentially overriding answers from third sources.
:::::::::So, should virginian ''not'' insist to object, and should third parties ''not'' override the decision, we'll likely return to where the actual discussion left off and debate the pages to be set up for The Coalition as a whole.
::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 02:21, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:(Reads through entire discussion). I'm with Renegade on this one. The pages dedicated to the Coalition were incredibly out-of-date before the revamp started (which is the problem the revamp sets out to eliminate). The problem with incomplete pages as brought up before - There is a big difference between incomplete and outdated. (Incomplete implies that there are people actively working on the section and that, at some point, it will be completed, whereas outdated suggests a general lack of keeping the section up-to-date). I think the point I'm trying to make has already been said, so I'll just leave it at that. --[[User:FH14]] 12:16, 23 March 2008 (EST)
::I have nothing to add right now except that Renegade's flowchart is the most amazing thing i have ever seen created in pursuit of an lgpedia debate.  --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 12:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Ren, things are unfolding in front of your eyes.  Perhaps you should take a step back and look at the big picture because clearly you just do not get it. You can do all the analysis you want but the reality is the Coalition is much more than it might appear from its current LGPedia presence.  I suggest that you watch all the videos and then return here with a better understanding of the topic.  Only then can we have a viable discussion. --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::Ah, there we are again...complete lack of factual evidence, but a condescending allegation I just don't "get it". Always a pleasure to read your posts, model.
::::::Anyway, since, as usual, you're just underlining my point...keep going.
::::::Anyone not as blindly stubborn as model should ask himself: If the Coalition is really as incredibly vast as model says, and even the smallest series manage to have a partially useful (even if ugly) pedia presence - why doesn't the Coalition manage that?
::::::''If'' the Coalition is as big as model says, there are just two possible explanations for the lack of Coalition-related pedia activity:
::::::#They don't really have any viewers, thus greatly damaging their notability.
::::::#The viewers and producers ''just don't care'' for LGPedia. So who would we be creating elaborate pages for? A summary for confused newbies would be enough.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:31, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::It has already been explained that the PMs (aka serious producers) are behind the curtain. Do you have any idea what the rules of an ARG are?  If you did then clearly you would not have asked that question.  The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.  No harm will be done and it will allow The Coalition fans the flexibility to build out if and when needed without having to fit into some arbitrary structure.  That said, I think it would be fair to say that the Coalition will respect the general guidelines and not spam the LGPedia with pages that are not needed. You are not dealing with random noobs here. You are dealing with people who have been an integral part of this community from the beginning .  The fact that things have not gone well is more to do with Miles and the lack of unfullfilled promises than it is to do with the motivation of the fans.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 17:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::You still don't grasp the basics of this discussion.
:::::::::::#It doesn't matter if the PMs are behind the curtain. Do you think Glenn comes here and does the RE pages? Do you see Jeromy writing MA transcripts? It's not about the PMs not coming, it's about ''no one else coming, either''. There is no sign there is even a single person interested in the Coalition's pedia pages. Think about it - they have been linked to from both the ''official blog'' of LG15 ''and'' LG15 Today. Did you see a single edit from anyone outside of this discussion? Shiori tried to fix the page because of the link, and you and Immo edited because it came up here multiple times. But even after significant exposure of the page, ''still'' no one else edited it. It very much looks like ''nobody cares''.
:::::::::::#We will not "simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on", because there is no justifiable reason for it. If 11-months outdated pages and basically no documented visitors are Tier 5, then what's the Flock? What's OpAphid? Tier 10 and Tier 15?
:::::::::::#It is absolutely and 100% ''insane'' to blame the lack of pedia editing by the Coalition fans on Miles's decision not to put up a fan video portal yet. One does not have anything to do with the other. (Although, if you can link to posts that specifically state "we will not edit the pedia until we get a fan video portal!", please do so - it'd help me a lot.)
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:03, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::It is really quite simple.  The Coalition should be Tier 5. As I said before it is intuitively obvious to everyone in the community.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:14, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 19:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Can we just call it Tier 5 and then move on.  Its all quite clear from the structure of the RT. It is clear from the Coalition web site. Its clear from the RedEarth88 web site.  It is clear from their video series.  And they even have community video spin offs from within their series.  I just fail to see how you could possibly do just to this at any less than Tier 5.  So please lets inject some sanity into a discussion that has already gone to long.  If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck its a duck.  So Tier 5 it is.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 19:34, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::If it is "clear" from so many websites, then it should not be difficult to provide the objective data to support that. If it is so clear, then I wonder why Immo himself suggested a 3-5 page (Tier 4) solution?
:::::::Not to mention, as I said before, the revamp does not override general pedia procedures. Even if they were the largest production on the internet - it still looks like no user cares for its pedia pages. Why create pages no one reads?

:::::::I don't think you quite get the state of discussion - this is practically settled. Given that Virginian's post makes very clear that each sub-series is ''not'' independent, The Coalition can only count as a whole. As such, Immo's list applies, and therefore, I've made a list of Tier 4 pages based on Immo's page suggestion. I am currently waiting for a specific person's opinion on this matter I'll get elsewhere, and once I have that, I can tell everyone how we will proceed.

:::::::So let me make this very clear: The images you see in your head are of no relevance to this discussion. Immo thought The Coalition should be rated higher, so he made a list of facts, that list was compelling, it seems now that it does apply to the situation, so currently, we're going from there. Nothing ''you'' posted in this entire discussion is even remotely comparable to Immo's contributions. The fact that you have images in your head, and the fact that ''your personal opinion'' is that the Coalition should be Tier 5 are, on their own, not relevant in the context of factual data.
:::::::It has been said, from the very, very, very beginning of this revamp, that we're looking for factual data. In fact, I believe you yourself quoted the relevant paragraph on LG15 Today. It was ''your'' decision to base your arguments on insults and condescendence instead, and you should've known from the beginning that wasn't going to work. (Well, at least after I've told you again and again.) So unless you stop your ridiculous "Are you blind?" posts and actually provide some cold, hard facts supporting your suggestion, the situation will be that there is one single person opposing the solution (you), and that person did, in half a dozen replies, not manage to make a single factual statement to support his opinion.
:::::::iow, the discussion would be over.
:::::::If it's so clear, it should be very easy to support your opinion. As such, should you not provide facts within your next post instead of the usual "you're too stupid, you have no idea, you're so blind" tirades, I'll have to assume you lied (again), it's absolutely ''not'' "obvious", and you don't have ''any'' facts to support your opinion.
----
:::::::To everyone else still following: Like I said, I'm waiting for an important reply on this matter, and once I get what I need, I'll post an update.
:::::::The point to discuss right now would be whether Virginian's statement is true or not - can you watch just one series of the Coalition and still understand, enjoy and follow it without knowing the others?
::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:22, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::To reply to your last paragraph, I can't give a straight answer, except yes and no. The  storylines collide. You can understand a storyline by following just one, but you would have to follow the colliding storylines to understand the whole story. Because of the number of interacting storylines that have been happening over the past many months, you really have to follow all to get the storyline. These are my observations as a fan, and I am not sure of what their official position is. 
:::::::::It sounds from your posts that you and immo have worked out a solution, pending on talking to somebody. It sounds like a fine solution as Tier 4. Perhaps if expansions are wished for later, they can be reevaluated later. [[User:Virginian9000|Virginian9000]] 21:51, 23 March (EST)
::::::::::Who exactly put you in charge here Ren and with what authority do you speak.  I have made the case and you are the one who has been flinging around random insults not me. LGPedia does have a procedure and it normally involves civil discussion not personal attacks and inflexible positions.  I have simply stated what i feel is the corect position and I still hold that to be true and reasonable within the confines of the discussion. I have pointed out that i am in fact very flexible as I said to Ph but I want to make sure we select an option that best represents the current format of the Coalition and the Red Territory in general since it seems to make up a very large portion of the community videos today (probably in the region of 50-75 percent.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:08, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::Sounds nice the way you dress it. Does not change the fact that, after you stated your opinion a million times over, you still didn't provide any reason why your opinion is the "right" one. You just keep insisting it's "obvious", that I'm blind for not seeing it and whatever.
:::::::::::We got your opinion. Now bring ''facts''.
:::::::::::As for your initial question, if you actually were in touch with the entire community, representing the UGC creators the way you behave, ''and'' had talked to Immo, you'd have heard by now that Zoey sends anyone asking about the revamp to me.
:::::::::::Now add one and one together.

:::::::::::@virginian: That sounds like my simile to a character in other series is about right...You can get Taylor's tales about football and friends, but you can't follow her videos as a whole without knowing what happened with the rest of the characters - especially when it's about saving people from blood-sucking elders.
:::::::::::So, since I don't think anyone would see Taylor's vlogs as an independent series, I'm inclined to see your post as confirmation of my interpretation.
:::::::::::And yes, of course the pageset can be re-evaluated later (as true for all series). The pageset I've currently planned is...
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition''', with an intro that explains the concept of the universe, crossovers, interaction and stuff, and then sections for each series
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition characters''', again with four sections and a short blurb to each character.
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition videos''', listing the videos (if in sections or as one mixed list would have to be discussed).
:::::::::::* '''The Coalition interaction''' - this one was not suggested by Immo, but I've seen several references to drops and live events, so I think they should probably have a place somewhere.
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 21:39, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::So you are talking on behalf of Zoey and the rest of the admins?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:49, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::Okay, this discussion has been going on for quite some time, but it sounds like we've finally reached somewhat of a conclusion. Considering Immo suggested something very similar to what Ren just proposed, and it seems to reflect the nature of the series well (from what I know), for now we're gonna stick with this. If people want to offer minor variations, fine, but as of right now the Coalition is ''not'' going to be tier 5, but will be tier 4 with the pages Ren has proposed. We will reevaluate the series when some time has passed (as we plan to do with all series when needed), but continuing discussion now will likely not lead anywhere productive.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 21:55, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::Oh yea, and I am glad you finally saw the wisdom in my "Tier 5 Lite" suggestion from earlier in the discussion.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 21:57, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::::::::Hear hear Jon . . . let's let's a move on with this Revamp, guys. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 21:58, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. Every admin, including our head admin, has his or her very own opinion on the matters of this revamp. The statements I make are my own and do not represent the opinion or the discussion style of the pedia as a whole or specific administrators - the fact that I clashed with Shiori before should be proof of that.
:::I am not talking "on behalf" of anyone. My opinion is not necessarily Zoey's, Jonpro's, Pheon's or anyone else's opinion, and both Zoey and Pheon have made their own replies before.
:::I have been put in charge of the revamp and will be coordinating this discussion as well as the pedians' efforts to carry out the revamp as it transpires as a result of this grand discussion.
:::I know what you're trying to do. You know you've been beat, you know you have no factual evidence to support your claims, so you are trying to blame specific comments ''I'' made on the administration of LGPedia in order to pressure them into removing me, so you can get your will anyway.
:::It's not gonna work.
:::Anyone with an eye and a brain can read the discussion above and see that I am ''not'' the great dictator you'd like to paint me as, that I have actually reacted pretty well to factual arguments (for example from Immo), and that the only reason you're not getting what you want is that you post again and again and again without a single reference or objective fact.
:::Had you made factual arguments, they would've been taken into account, just as all other factual arguments have been taken into account. Try to lie, try to spin, but this exact discussion is proof of it more than anything - I started out with no, Immo got his facts out, and now I'm at yes and have actually based my pageset suggestion on Immo's earlier post. I have no problem with changing my opinion or seeing other people's points. As long as they're based on fact and reason, and not nebulous claims that everything is "obvious" and that I'm just too ignorant to see it.
:::This propaganda manipulation stuff may work on the blog, where you can say whatever you want and no one sees the references. It doesn't work here. The discussion is right above, and you cannot delete it. You said it is clear and obvious that you're right - yet you fail again and again to prove it. Even if you manage to blackmail the administration into appointing someone else, that will not change.
:::With virginian's at least semi-approving post above, you are the only one complaining about the treatment of the Coalition. And no ridiculous questioning of my authority in the last second will change this. We had a question. We have discussed it at length. Given that Immo wanted a Tier bump for The Coalition, and the Coalition will be getting one (unless higher-ups veto), I think the discussion was successful in the eyes of the original poster.
:::''Everybody is happy. Except for you.''
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:26, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::Actually to the contrary.  As far as I can see we got all we asked for. It is "Tier 5 lite" just like I suggested.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 00:09, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::If this is the "Tier 5 lite" you suggested, then you're either incapable of reading the Tier 4 description, or just argued for arguing's sake. Thanks for annoying the hell out of everyone for nothing.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 00:32, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::Ren, your persistent insults are just incompatible with your role as "project leader" here.  I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground.  You just fail to read what is written.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 05:19, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::To the contrary, I can read very well what was written - which is why I am capable of distinguishing ''"[...] a slighly different approach and different reasoning but I think we are close to a workable solution."'' from ''"It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."'' and ''"Perhaps we could consider it as 'Tier 5 Lite' where fans of the series would have an 'option' to build out the pages if the shows independently or collectively gain traction with fans as seems to be currently happening."'' from ''"Tier 4 Fanfic is fanfic that, under all objective considerations, should belong to Tier 3, but for some subjective or organizational reason are allowed to branch out and create more than one page."''
:::The very basis of your suggestion was an entirely different one - you wanted "Tier 5 lite", with dynamic page creation under discretion of the editing users, whereas Tier 4 is a "Tier 3 Deluxe", where pages are only created when absolutely necessary.
:::And since I am capable of reading what is written, I can also take your post apart right here and now:
::::''Ren, your persistent insults'' --> unsourced attempt to make me look like an aggressor.
::::''are just incompatible with your role as'' --> unsourced attempt to project your personal expectations of the behavior of a project leader onto everyone else.
::::''"project leader" here.'' --> attempt to question my authority on these matters again, by putting my position into doubt, despite the fact that you know full well I am legitimitely leading this discussion.
::::''I was quite clear when Ph posted that there was a lot of common ground.'' --> non-denial denial. Your original statement, which I questioned, was "It is 'Tier 5 lite' just like I suggested."; your new statement does ''not'' contest that your original statement was incorrect. It merely states an actual, ''different'' fact: That your idea of "Tier 5 lite" admittedly was ''not'' equal to a Tier 4 listing, there was just "a lot of common ground". It may have been close, it may have covered a lot of "common ground", but as per your own statement, right there, it was ''not'' "just like [you] suggested". 

:::Of course, all of that doesn't even touch on the fact that your interest in "Tier 5 lite" was long gone anyway:
:::*''Otherwise let's just make it Tier 5 and move onto the next issue.''
:::*''The reality is that we can simply make The Coalition Tier 5 and move on.''
:::*''It is really quite simple. The Coalition should be Tier 5.''

:::Tier 4 is ''not'' equal to "Tier 5 lite". Its very description made that clear from the inception of this page. So don't pretend you had any part in the solution of this discussion. All you did was repeatedly try to get us to move the Coalition to Tier 5, tell us the reasons were blatantly obvious without proving it, question my authority and try to blame the fact that no one edited the Coalition's LGPedia pages on the fact that the creators had not set up a community portal.
:::The truth is, the "magic moment" was one day ''before'' you suggested "Tier 5 lite" - when Immo's suggestion of ''"You can do this in 3-5 pages. [...]"'' was answered, quite clearly, by me with ''"As a Tier 4 solution, that sounds reasonable, and, given your list above, I am inclined to support that...however - there is still the question of whether The Coalition as a whole even is a series that can be bumped, and there are still the issues of general user interest and page maintenance."''
:::As of that point, ''four days ago'', it would just have been a question of whether his list actually applies or not. Instead, you dragged it out longer and longer, insisting Tier 5 was necessary, that we were all just too blind to see it, and questioning under what authority I was actually replying here.
:::I have asked you over and over and over again to support your posts with facts. You didn't, but still posted. You have done ''nothing'' to help this discussion come to an end, instead condescendingly implying we had no idea what we were talking about and no right no talk in the first place again and again. So don't sit here and pretend this was all your idea and you got exactly what you wanted.
:::''You'' and ''you alone'' are the reason this discussion was so godforsaken long and aggressive. Immo stated his points, I stated my points, Immo semi-convinced me, we discussed the next question, Virginian explained the connection between the series, I extracted the important information from that and was entirely convinced of Immo's suggestion, Virginian stated it sounded like a "fine solution", FH14 read through and agreed, milo, Jonpro and Pheon didn't object - it may have been heated at times, but in the end, we ''did'' have a factual discussion, I ''did'' accept the facts and Immo ''did'' convince me. The only one who kept ignoring all facts and arguments and kept repeating his "Tier 5! Tier 5!" cries with condescendence and insults is ''you''.
:::''You'' are the one who dragged out this discussion, and ''you'' are the one who fueled it with aggression and insults. You are not the great savior that suggested the solution. You are the reason the Revamp looks so fucked up to outside viewers.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::What was your point?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:23, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::See above, lest I cut and paste every comment I have made in the page week, along with some new amazing charts emphasizing said points, I am completely out of witty repartee at the moment  ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)[This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
::::::::Can Childofthecult7 be reclassified as Tier 3 plus plus heavy?  It's completely obvious that that is appropriate result.--[[User:------|------]] 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)  [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
:::::::::[Head explodes] ~ [[User:------|------]] ([[User talk:------|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/------|contribs]]) 04:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT) [This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
::::::::::I like applesauce.--[[User:------|------]] 4:36, 24 March 2008 (CDT)[This edit was added by Milowent and wrongfully attributed to another user - milo says sorry]
:::::::::::If i was being cute, I would have ghostwritten the last few comments myself.  Let's go with the tier 4 for the Coalition as Ren sets forth above and move on!--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 09:12, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::Agreed. Also, seeing as this discussion is quite lengthy, it might be a good idea if it was moved to the archive --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:07 24 March 2008 (EST)

:::::::Exactly that, model.
::::::::::::Milo, I liked your previous posts, but this one went way, way too far. Do ''not'' pose as another user again. Period. It may be obvious to you, but it's not to everyone else. Even ''I'' went "wtf?! I didn't post that!!". It is important that users can trust a comment belongs to the person it was signed as, and a tiny little 4:36 is not hint enough, especially given that no one usually reads the timestamp.
::::::::::::Don't do that again. Ever.
:::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::::::::::Milo, I gotta side with Renegade on this one. I thought it was funny on [[Talk:437]], but that discussion wasn't as heated as this one and you made it much more obvious there. Also, here you impersonated people currently taking part in the discussion, which would only have the effect of confusing those trying to follow it. I apologize for encouraging you on the 437 talk page as impersonating other people (in any form) really is unacceptable. I let it slide because I thought it was funny, but now it's clear that it has the potential to cause major problems, so please, and this applies to everyone, '''never impersonate anyone else anywhere on the pedia'''. Anyone who does this will be warned and if they continue they may have their account blocked. Again, I apologize for encouraging it, but Ren is absolutely right, so let's just not do it.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 15:03, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::::::OK, I agree I crossed the line that time. I am sorry and promise not to do that again. The debate had gotten so far out of hand that I was driven temporarily insane. There is a lot of unnecessary bickering going on, not that my attempt at humor helped at all. --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 21:35, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

===="Tier 1 Format"====
I would like to know more about the "Tier 1 format".  Exactly what will it look like and how will the information on a page like [[Elendi-Waffle Lonelistic Physics Research Institute (EWLPRI).]] look like on the new page. Will any information be cut?  If so will we be be told in advance what information will be cut and will we have a opportunity to comment on all proposed cuts?--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 06:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:Funny how ''you'' just a few paragraphs above, told me "You just fail to read what is written."
:But actually, I'm glad you asked this - because it proves 100% that you have not read the Tier list ''at all'' in the past few weeks of discussion, and that you didn't look around the rest of the pedia either. The [[List of UGC series not covered on LGPedia]] already exists. The very page you linked to ''has already been marked for deletion''.
:So, to answer your question - yes, information will be cut from Tier 1 pages. If you want to see how it will look like, just follow the link I just gave you.
:The pages will be rewritten by all of us, coordinated by your favorite Revamp-leader - me! So no, there will not be a separate discussion for every single page being rewritten. You can contribute to the new, shortened pages as usual, and that includes restoring information that may have been cut before - as long as the pages stay within the realms of their assigned Tiers. You can volunteer to revamp specific pages, as long as you coordinate your effort with ''me'' - since I have to keep track.

:Thank you for your post. Honestly. Because it demonstrates how minimal your interest in this discussion really was, and how you just used it to try to push your personal favorites and try to shove a community portal down our throats.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:30, 24 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Do you really have to begin every comment with a blatant insult? And for the record I do not subjugate myself to any leader. Neither to I recognize you having any authority over me.  I also think the concept of a community video portal is perfectly valid and I will continue to press for one.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:08, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Is there any comment from you that will be truthful and on topic? There was no insult in my post.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)

===="Guidelines"====
I just want to post because I am a bit concerned that the way things are currently set up, people who are interested in making new pages for new series will not have the opportunity to open a discussion regarding moving said series to a higher/lower tier. I want to ensure that people will have this opportunity, and I would like to open a discussion for ways we can ensure this will happen. My suggestion is to use the word "guidelines" with this system instead of "rules." I know the word "rules" has not been stated, but after reading the comments, I feel that this is the case, and I think "guidelines" would better indicate the tone of this discussion. I am not saying that they will be guidelines in the sense that anyone can do what they want, but in the sense that things will be open for discussion and that people cannot just "enforce" that a series is stuck in a set tier because of hard and fast "rules," but instead, that there will be discussion which everyone can participate and voice their opinion in as is the tradition on LGPedia.  We should remember that the admins have the overall authority to ensure that LGPedia is well run an ultimately if things get out of hand the power does still rest with the admins.  I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 00:52, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:I think that's an important point, model. And no one is saying that these tiers are set in stone for any of these series. Things change, series get more/less popular (of course historical notability must also be considered), and discussions will have to be reopened. That's part of the way things work (ideally at least). The whole purpose of this discussion was just to categorize what we have cataloged here currently, and now that that's (mostly) done, things ''should'' run more smoothly. There seems to have been a lot of drama here and I've tried to stay out of it (although I have read it all), but I think it's time to move on, and I think this discussion is a good way to do that.--[[User:Jonpro|Jonpro]] 01:21, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:First of all, I don't understand where you're proposing this change in terminology. Since I don't speak of rules (as you noted), I have no idea where you would like me to speak of "guidelines" instead.
:Secondly, I have no idea where you think a certain Tier is enforced, or stuck to someone or anything. The system is pretty straightforward - it places new series and series new to the pedia automatically on Tier 2, the entry level (as it has already happened with masonishappy, for example), and if series gain momentum, they are re-evaluated - be it because its increased notability is evident, the informational load leads to an administrative request, or because a fan requests it.
:People are "stuck" in their Tier for a certain amount after an evaluation. That makes sense, and is normal - otherwise, somebody could just request a higher Tier every day until the end of time. We have a grand evaluation now, so of course we're not going to bump up half the series one day after completion. But by next month (or whenever) the situation of a series might totally have changed. Look at Paulmark18 - a single shoutout in an official episode increases their notability enough to rise to Tier 3. That could happen to any series any day. And of course we'll have to re-evaluate its status then. But I don't get what that has to do with which word we don't use and which word we should use instead of the word we don't use in the first place?

:To sum it up, I have no idea what you want to change. And given that you yourself admit that the word you want to replace is not used in the first place, I'm not entirely sure you do, either.
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 01:24, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

::Well, Renegade, I think MM just wants to make sure that this is all stated out, black and white, and honestly, it's been ambiguous at best.  I think it needs to be blatantly stated that this new system is merely a set of guidelines to properly categorize the many fanfics.  Shoot, our previous discussions with Masonishappy are definitely important because that show is a guinea pig in the way we'll be treating all new fanfictions from now on.  So yes, to just to make it clear, if the criteria fit, there should be no reason why a show can't fit in a certain Tier, higher or lower.  If there's a series that's become really popular (even after starting out really slow) or the Creators later 'canonize' (like they did last fall with P&A), I see no reason why that show can't be approved of a higher Tier. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 01:29, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

:::Isn't that included in ''"Monitor UGC/fanfic expansion, re-evaluate tier status where necessary, assess new UGC/fanfic"''? -_^
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 12:35, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

::::I don't think anyone is really far apart on this issue, at least.  Series may move around from time to time, but having a structure will make things much less arbitrary.  As always, the 'pedia will react to particular cases as they occur.  As a wise man said in the movie Ghostbusters:  
::::'''Dr. Peter Venkman''': I make it a rule never to get involved with possessed people.
::::''[Dana starts passionately making out with him]''
::::'''Dr. Peter Venkman''': Actually, it's more of a guideline than a rule... 
::::--[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 22:00, 18 March 2008 (CDT)

==Community Video Portal==
Since the issue of the number and frequency of edits has been put on the table as a criteria of notability perhaps it is time to revisit the topic of a "Community Video Portal".  I realise that this was taken off the table early on by Zoey and i was quite willing to go along with that. However, things have changed and clearly  a community video portal is a much higher priority than the revamp because of the criteria being used in that process.  We need the Creators to show that they fully embrace community videos and what better way to do that than put community videos on the LGPedia map?  Yes, I am talking about adding a community video portal to the left hand menu.  The best place for it would be under the search box since adding it above the search box would force it down too far.  I think it is time to start a full discussion of the importance of such a portal and it should become part of the implementation plan for the revamp so that community videos have fair and equal exposure.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 13:34, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:Model, if you remember correctly, Zoey did say this quite early on --
::''Let me just clarify, this discussion {the Fanfic Revamp} is JUST for fanfic SERIES and how they will be treated on the pedia. Any discussion about what to do about it after the fact is arbitrary at this point, as creating a portal cannot happen unless we have some sort of focus. If we want to create a portal, or any other means of featuring the fanfic AFTER THE FACT, that discussion should take place after the fact. So let's please not discuss that at this time.'' 
:::''Thanks.'' --Zoey 18:47, 21 December 2007 (CST)
:So, yeah . . . as much as this discussion may be relevant at a future date, there's just too much going on right now with the current discussions, and I fear all this is going to do is make the whole Revamp even more difficult and argumentative. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 15:10, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::Like, I said, because of the tone and nature of the discussion above things have changed.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:12, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::Not at all. You'd just like it to have changed.
:::The Revamp is related to the structure and maintenance of UGC pages on LGPedia.
:::A community video portal is related to the promotional embrace of UGC pages on LGPedia.
:::These are different things and Zoey has made very clear that a community portal will not be decided on as part of this topic.
:::Period.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:18, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::There's no denying that the tone and nature has changed, but that doesn't mean we should throw in another giant discussion right in. Seriously, I'm not totally sure what's up with everyone this past week or so, but I do think they best thing to do right now would for everyone to take a DEEP breath and try and change the tone to something more civil. Than maybe we can get more productive about the whole darn thing. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 15:19, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::I totally agree.  However if the current tone persists and the same arguments keep being made then the subject of a Community Video Portal needs to be on the table because that is the only fair way to give full exposure to the community videos. Clearly it would have been better to have the revamp first but if things are going to be cut on the basis of the number of current edits etc then its a different ball game. What we need is respect for the historical record. Look at it as a preservation movement if you will.  As with any history there are clearly things that should be saved but there are always those who want to sweep away the past in favor of something shiny and new.  That is often a big mistake.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::No one here is deliberating wiping out ''all'' traces of past series from the Pedia.  We're merely putting the inforation we DO have into a better organized system (at least that was what we originally set out to do, and I do think it's been "trying" to accomplish that).  But like I posted earler, this is just another ballpark of discussions that's only going to lead to more bickering right now, especially since Zoey told all of us - not. right. now. Later, sure, but not right now. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 15:37, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

::::Like I told you above, like you continuously ignore, there is no "historical record" - just incomplete pages no one cared for for 6 to 11 months. So why don't you stop with the charade and admit this was the reason for your joining of the discussion all along? Or do you want to insist it's a coincidence you kept coming back with insulting answers, trying to paint me as an evil dictator, not bringing a single factual argument, only to then post that it was necessary due to a change of "tone and nature" of the discussion to add a Community Portal?
::::I'm just glad you finally came out and said what you wanted...maybe those of us actually interested in this discussion can go back to work now.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:50, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::<small>And you can lament as much as you want, neither you, nor me, nor Pheon stand above Zoey's orders.</small>

:::::I agreed with the original goal and I was willing to wait on the portal on that basis. However things have not been going well and that is why this issue was raised.  Again, my primary concern is that we do not loose any of the important historical record.  That would include transcripts of some series that may not in the future have transcripts.  If you are going to have surgery you need to have faith the doctor fully understands the anatomy of the patient.  I am not convinced this is the case with this revamp and that is the central problem.  If I see a firm commitment to the preservation of the historical record I would be quite willing to go along with the revamp but at the current time that is not the case and that is why I am raising the need for a community video portal.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:56, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::Model, do you really think discussing a portal is actually going to guarentee "old" videos will keep their transcripts?  It was a heap of a discussion to even make the KM portal, a CANON portal, last summer, and you really want to bring up the possibily of trying to make a portal dedicated to every fan-made?  It's something we totally haven't done before and to serious discuss all the little quirks about potentially creating a new portal . . . there's no way we can do justice to it.  Honestly, it's a whole different field. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:01, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

::::::So far, you failed to convey why specific transcripts are "important historical record"s. Even ''Immo'' said about The Coalition: "'''I don't feel transcripts are necessary''' nor do I feel that individual character pages are necessary at this point. ".
::::::You want the "important historical record"s saved? You want transcript pages? Fine. Then quit insisting the revamp sucks, stop trying paint me as the root of all evil, and actually make a factual, logically coherent post that explains why certain series are historically so significant that it is an absolute must for the community to have transcripts of their episodes available.
::::::You keep insisting we have no clue of UGC, and keep implying you do. Fine. Prove it. Use that knowledge you have to make a case. A provable case. Show us numbers. References. Show us where we are wrong. Show us why ''Immo'' is wrong, in your opinion. Argue on a factual basis. Within the revamp discussion. For what you want.
::::::Instead of just randomly claiming we're all evil and just want to kill over and over again.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:08, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::I did not say that Immo was wrong.  In fact in terms of the Coalition he is a leading expert and his opinion and advice should totally be respected and followed.  I have suggested workable short term solutions and I have even implemented some of them although any actions on my part were without his knowledge, consent or approval so I would totally defer to his knowledge of the Coalition.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 16:38, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:::In terms of the portal it is really not that difficult.  We already have the core material on one page [http://www.lg15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=LG15_Spin-offs].  All we would need is the links on the left and menu and it could go from there.  Its a wiki, things evolve and improve if you create the correct structure.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 16:42, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
:Model, I'd hardly call that a portal, it would be better refered to as a list.  but anyways, this is going to get off-topic pretty soon - just reading the past posts has convinced me enough that if this discussion continues, it's only going to get further off-topic and more argumentative.  Renegade, Model, and everyone else who gives a darn about this Revamp - I love you guys, so I really suggest we all return to discussing the Revamp in the other active discussions.  Any discussion regarding a Community Portal is simply premature at this time.  '''End of Discussion'''. --[[User:Phoenician|Pheon]] 16:49, 21 March 2008 (CDT)
::I said we had the core of a portal meaning that it has all the links.  Obviously it would have to be restructured to produce an effective portal but that could be done in a few hours.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 16:53, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

==Flock Regulations==
And before you start complaining: These rules are actually quite gracious. It takes less than ten minutes to get a barebones video page up. You have been given three ''days''. It takes less than one minute to add a link to a list. You have been given ''two days''. If your people work as great as you touted, you should be in no danger. But there is nothing you can say that will change the fact that being incapable of doing a ten-minute-job within three days is a very clear sign your section is ''not'' actively being maintained, and since the only reason you have been given the right to create separate pages is that you vouched to keep them maintained, violation of these regulations will lead to the termination of this deal.<br>
In addition, you should be aware that the pedia doesn't sleep, and it doesn't wait for you. Deadlines will not change because you are on vacation or anything. If your pages go unmaintained just because one person cannot contribute, that's just another sign you cannot handle the workload.<br>
As said above, the timeframes you have been given are very gracious, especially considering that you don't even have to care for the whole pedia, but just a very, very small subset of its pages. So take what you can get, and keep your section maintained - any complaints will only lead to a re-evaluation of these timeframes, and might very well lead to the administration deciding that you don't really need two days to put up a single link.
:~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 15:16, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::1) I do question whether you have the authority on behalf of the administration to impose regulations but in the end it doesn't matter.<br>
::2) That fact that this section takes almost half the page is telling.  You've obviously spent a great deal of time looking at Flock page histories to see how long it takes for types of edits to be made.  I can only assume that your sheriff of these parts and will be keeping a close eye to insure these regulations are met.</br>
::4) These are fan contributions, no one is running to the lgpedia to read transcripts for current vids.  It's about archiving.  The one thing this process has ignored from the very beginning is how and why these pags are used.  They are used differently than the canon series.<br>  
::5) When reading "superfluous content (like the current character placeholders)" is where my needle ticked.  We ended season 1 with every character's future uncertain.  Since the lgpedia is our only web presence I put the placeholders in to create suspense between seasons and as the season got started as to which characters would return and which new ones would show up.  We revealed a new character as recently as last week.  You might have a case if I upload new images for this purpose but I used the same image that has been on the page since day one in each case.  It just shows that you're looking really hard to find something to complain about and will continue to do so.<br>   
::6) The fact that you've named these "Immo's Regulations" suggest that I somehow am getting special treatment.  I don't want or need special treatment.  I mean if my people are doing the editing doesn't that ease the burden of other editors?  Seems like a fair exchange to me.<br>
::7) At the end of the day all this appears to be is a petty pathetic attempt to best me and guess what?  You win, tell a friend.  Our project is very laid back.  I don't hold the girls to a video schedule I'm sure as hell am not going to hold them to your regulations.  Whoever has edited the Flockipedia has done so without any prodding from me.  They are free to still do so.  I won't discourage them but I'd expect they won't.  Whether FH14 continues to do so is up to him.  I'll take this opportunity to thank him for all his hard work.  So however far back you scale the Flock's pages I expect the administration to maintain them at the same level as others in the same tier.
::--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 18:43, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::#Question all you want...I have no fear of it.
::#Actually, I've got better things to do than to police you...I'm four weeks past schedule on the portal redesign, have to fix character icons and whatnot. But I'm sure FH14 will keep an eye on everything.
::#Yeah...you kinda don't have 3. Cheating on the numbers, are we?
::#So? The fact that your users use your pages differently than the canon ones is a reason they should be allowed to make the pedia as a whole look incomplete? ''Transcript missing'' looks like "The pedia is missing a transcript.", not "Immo had a logical reason not to put up a transcript at the moment, and the pedia is not at fault for this.". You may not care if a transcript is missing, but for us, it means the pedia looks incomplete. The fact that you don't seem to grasp that your pages directly represent LGPedia to the readers explains why you don't give a fuck about our needs. I don't care for what reason you put up transcripts, as long as they're there. Nobody is reading Flock pages thinking "oh, these are immo's pages" - they are reading ''the pedia'', and everything they see falls back on ''the pedia''. When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad, not you.
::#Your needle can tick all it wants. The fact that you had to write a whole thick paragraph to explain these placeholders should tell you it's not obvious. For everyone else, it looks like somebody failed at table building. If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something, so the user knows it's meant to be empty, and not just horrible layouting.
::#Ever heard of "Miranda Laws"? You're a precedent, and the only one getting this special bumping so far. Thus, it's named after you. Why should I name it "Tier 4 Exception Regulations" when, technically, Tier 4 already ''is'' the exception? Face it, you're getting special treatment, and you're the only one getting it so far, so it's named after you.<br>And, just for the sake of mentioning it: Once more, your argument can be spun both ways - deleting all but one Flock pages would also ease our burden, and a lot more than still having to patrol what your users do on 50 pages.
::#Oh, I'm sorry, were you out of arguments? Did you find no way to attack me on the subject matter? I don't care if your project is laid back, how you keep your girls or whatever. It's time you finally grasp this is not about you in any way. It's about the pedia as a whole and all of the fanfic. The only reason it's personalized for you is because you're the only creator who got here trying to defend his creation with nonsense, insults, and pulling strings behind the scenes.<br>You were speaking about how stuff was telling. You know what's telling? That in six points you had, you didn't question a single of the regulations I wrote. All your six points were direct attacks at me. First questioning my authority, then insinuating I was unrightfully thinking of myself as a sort of "pedia police", going on to imply that I just don't understand your ways, that I was unfairly pointing out obvious flaws in your design, that I was highlighting you for no apparent reason, and finally, directly saying I'm picking on you, calling me pathetic.<br>You may think you did a great job at undermining my credibility, insulting me, or whatever the hell you tried there. Fact is, this was your response to the regulations, you did not object to them, so they will go in effect as written, unless the administration intervenes.
::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 20:34, 27 February 2008 (CST)

:::::Again in your effort to "win" you miss the most important point which is where I said I will not follow your regulations nor will I ask anyone else to and I concede what that means in terms of whatever tier the administration deems the Flock should go.  Could that be the reason I didn'nt object to the them?--[[User:Immortal1|Immortal1]] 22:56, 27 February 2008 (CST)

::::::Then I guess this deal is void and your pages will be collapsed.
::::::<nowiki>*shrug*</nowiki> Less work for us.
:::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 23:01, 27 February 2008 (CST)
:::Okay, here's my two cents on this whole thing. You can argue back at me if you want or whatever, but I'm just stating what I took from this.
:::Firstly, you say "If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something" -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying "We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that." Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.
:::And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing? I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words "When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad." 
:::You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.
:::Next, you say "Less work for us" if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it? So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.
:::And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?
:::<nowiki>*takes a deep breath and closes the window*</nowiki>
:::[[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 01:12, 28 February 2008 (CST)

::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|Firstly, you say "If you want it to be like planned, give it a picture that says "to be revealed" or something" -- Why would you do that? Surely that takes away the element of surprise whether or not new characters are going to be added or not. That's like lonelygirl turning round and saying "We're putting a picture of Jules here because she's going to come in the series in a weeks time. But shhh, we didn't tell you that." Or something like that. Personally, I think the placeholders makes the page look nice as well, but yeah.}}
::::That is what I tried to say - they look nice to ''you'' because you know what they are. For the uninitiated, they look like random crap added by someone who didn't know how to correctly build a table, and had to fill up the remaining cells. I was not suggesting to reveal anything (hence the "or something") - I was merely suggesting to make obvious to ''everyone'' that these images are supposed to be where they are and that they serve a function, and that they aren't just fillers to hold the table together.<br>Immo specifically said he created them to create suspense - would it hurt the suspense to add "New season 2 character?" or something on it? That would give away nothing, have the same effect, and everybody would know it's supposed to be there.<br>But nooooo, instead we add cryptic symbols, expecting everyone to psychically guess their true meaning.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|And name me one person who would complain about the lgpedia looking untidy if a couple of transcripts are missing?}}
::::Zoey.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|I've seen a weeks worth of Kate Modern transcripts not completed before. And don't use the argument that it's canon, because by your own words "When you miss a transcript, it makes ''us'' look bad."}}
::::And I'm pretty sure Zoey and an armada of KM users were pretty unhappy about it, and said armada did not blame specific, random users, but blamed the general entity "the pedia" for not having transcripts. That's like saying, "I see you already have too many pages to work on, so why do you not want ours to work on, too?" I fail to see your point. (And for the record: I don't watch KM. I am not involved in any KM operation on this site, except for template hardcode fixing. What you say may be true, but I know nothing about it.)
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|You also say people look at the pedia as a whole. Since when? I don't watch RE or MA or anything like that, and therefore I don't care if they're missing information. The only people who would look at The Flock pages are either fans, or potential fans. And there's enough information put up a few hours to a day after each video to keep both sets of people happy.}}
::::My statement was not to say that you as a Flock user would go around and check for missing RE transcripts. My point was, the generic user doesn't go "Oh my, FH14 failed to add the second half of transcript XY yet!", but "BAH! The pedia's transcript is incomplete again!". The users don't look at sub-sections or individual users. If a transcript is missing, it's not missing on an episode page of the Flock subsection. It's missing on "the pedia".<br>Thus, any missing transcript gives the pedia as a whole a bad image.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|Next, you say "Less work for us" if you did collapse it - but isn't the whole point of The Flock being that it's self-servicing, ie no admins need to edit it?}}
::::That was the basis of the deal, yes. The regulations would've caught if you ''didn't'' do that, because then you ''wouldn't'' be self-servicing, and ''would'' require additional help. Had you updated the pages as normal, everything would've been fine, and you'd never have heard of the regulations again.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|So what if a couple of transcripts are a day or so late - transcripts are a time-consuming thing to do, even for a short video. I'm not complaining because I love editing The Flock pages. But personally I'd say that the video's page should be up at the very least (Title, Description, screenshot, character etc). The simple fact is-- it may take 2 days, it may take 2 weeks. But at the end of the day everything on The Flock area is updated. Without admins.}}
::::And that is exactly what's inacceptable. Users don't have a magic page radar that tells them "''Now'' you can come, page's ready!" - they come when they want to look something up. And when the page isn't there, see above - they don't go "Oh damn, Babygurl1853 hasn't added a video page for Flock 64 yet." they go "WTF?? Does the pedia STILL not have a page?? The episode has been out for two weeks!!!".<br>This is what the regulations were for. They set you a certain timeframe. Had you wanted to put the episode links after 10 minutes, ten hours or a day, we wouldn't have cared. We'd just have cared had you not done it within two days, since it's a ten-second-job, after all. You may not care if there is no video page. The readers do. And they blame all of us, not you personally.
::::{{quote|Babygurl1853|And I don't see any string pulling happening. It was a reasonable request, and an extremely valid argument. If another video creator had the same argument, and requested the same, would you still have a problem with it? Or do you just like arguing with Immo?}}
::::It's apparent that you either didn't talk to Immo beforehand, or that Immo intentionally failed to mention certain facts about his live conversations. Rest assured, I know for a fact that this wasn't the first place this deal was suggested, and rest assured I, personally, told him that the volume of pages and their well-maintained condition were greatly speaking for keeping them. (I have logs to prove that, too.)
::::This isn't about me hating Immo. This is about Immo's resistance to respect that the administration of this encyclopedia has to make sure its content is in a reasonable state of maintenance, and that his desire to keep more than 50 pages and more adds to the editing burden we ''all'' have to share. If you don't understand why all of us, ask Immo - I explained it to him multiple times on IRC.
::::As for your last question, if said theoretical fanfic would be eligible for such a deal (i.e. be in Tier 3 and have a reasonable argument to bump up to 4 if it sustains itself), and it agrees to the proposed regulations and accept the consequences should it fail to adhere to the regulations, I'd have no problem with it. It's just that the very fact that you have proven before that you can run the section on your own is what gave Immo the leverage to broker this deal - other fanfics have not shown such self-management capabilities. Nobody, not even me, doubted you could easily stay within the regulations. Especially if you are an active pedia editor, you know exactly that it doesn't take three days to add a main character to the portal. With image upload, with preparations, with extra time for weird bugs, it takes 30 minutes max. 
::::And yet, 3 days for a 30 minute task are apparently not good enough for Immo. Whatever. I have proposed the regulations, I can show you countless examples for every task showing that you would've gotten vastly more time then necessary, if that's still not good enough for Immo, that's not my fault. This is not Immo's personal pedia praise party, this is content reorganization. He had fought his way to get his very own special deal, he didn't want it. That's his decision, not mine.
::::In all likelyhood, had Immo agreed, nothing would've have changed for The Flock whatsoever.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 07:36, 28 February 2008 (CST)
:It looks like this has gotten... ''interesting'' to say the least. I'm going to start out by saying that I have few objections to the regulations Renegade has proposed (''few'' not ''a few'', as in I only have 1 or 2 minor ones. That would be in the case we had a few weeks ago, where a new character is added who has a number of videos that need to be added, in that case, the transcription deadline could be extended while the others remain the same.) I'm not even going to touch on the whole Immo-backdoor-deal-that-he-and-Satan-made-to-bug-Renegade-for-several-weeks thing (I find it amusing how you two can both accuse the other of being rude in the most civil way possible. :P) A way to ease the whole "incomplete" transcripts make the lgpedia look bad would be to make the '''!!!Transcript Incomplete!!!''' less obvious looking on all the pages where that template is used. (Please note, I am not trying to sound mean or demanding, and I apologize if I come across that way, also, I changed "Immo Regulations" to "Flock Regulations" to kill any arguments over that). --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 20:12, 3 March 2008 (EST)
:I have nothing else to add...Other than to point at the latest Flock video, which had page, image, transcript, and character background added and updated before even immo saw the video :D *is a good girl* [[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 19:51, 2 March 2008 (CST)

:::Has a final decision been made?  After reading all this i don't actually see a clear meeting of the minds as to how the plan will be implemented.  However if a final decision has been made it should be announced.  Personally I think the final decision should be a set of voluntary guidelines rather than "regulations".  It should be up to the users to decide how they are implemented, but it would give the admins a blueprint to "nudge" users in a helpful direction. It would also give the admins the freedom to move things around where there are no clear objections which I think would be the majority of situations.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:30, 6 March 2008 (CST)

::Basically Zoey told us to do nothing except discuss until she manages to get her computer fixed. I'm not sure when that'll happen, either. (I added a note to the schedule.)- [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 15:27, 6 March 2008 (CST)

::: I do not see why there is any need for special time lines because LGPedia already uses a system for tagging pages that are going to be modified.  The same system will work fine here without specific regulations.  That said, LGPedia admins need to apply the tags in a way that gives users adequate time to respond in the talk page, but I believe that is how they currently operate.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 16:53, 6 March 2008 (CST)

::::Because the situation is different - normal pages get tagged as normal. This was about pages that wouldn't even exist under normal conditions. Also, the tags are practically open-ended. Just because something is flagged as cleanup doesn't mean anybody actually cleans it up. Yet, the promise that would've been made by the deal was that pages don't need to be worried about in the first place, thus, had it come as far as that we'd actually have to tag a Flock page, they would already have violated the deal.
::::As for whether we will proceed at all - I don't know. Zoey sounded like the Revamp would continue, but specifically said we're not supposed to go forward without her. We're kind of in limbo right now.
:::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 18:59, 6 March 2008 (CST)

I think we need to make sure the voluntary guidelines work for everyone.  I also think they need to be flexible enough to cope with all situations without making "deals".  We want to ecourage people to build great pages, not force them into timetables. In general its pretty obvious when a page has been abandoned and when it has just not been updated.  
Such pages can be tagged and if there is no objection they can be edited/moved as is the normal procedure on LGPedia.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:44, 7 March 2008 (CST)

:I don't quite see the point of that. The reason for those "guidelines" was that they were ''not'' voluntary - that they were necessary control mechanisms to make sure Immo kept his part of the deal. Since Immo has no interest in the deal with them, they're more or less irrelevant anyway. (Not to mention that, as ''any'' pedian can confirm to you, that "forcing into timetables" was set up very generously - just ask Shi how or Babygurl how long they usually need to add a transcript, and then compare that to the week of slack allowed.)
::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 13:29, 7 March 2008 (CST)
:I simply do not see a need for "rules" to implement the "Tier System".  The discussion on this page demonstrates that the normal wiki process works and voluntary guidelines for the entire "Tier System" are more in keeping with the philosophy of an entertainment wiki.  I think that gives users the most freedom to be creative in their approach while allowing the pedia to retain the sense of order needed. The pages that have been tagged with the link to this discussion have had ample time to discuss their concerns and where those have been fully resolved I think its fair to proceed under the basis of voluntary guidelines.  However where fans and series producers have concerns those should be discussed and resolved as is normal wiki procedure.  However I think the creation of "rules" is a bad idea and does not serve the interests of the community.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 14:30, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

::Nobody was trying to implement "rules" for the Tier system. If you go and read the discussion, you will see that this entire section is an obsolete special case scenario purely for the Flock. It was a special case Tier 4 ruling, and had nothing to do with general regulation of the Tier system.
::Frankly, as much as I value your input, it doesn't help that you keep trying to artificially create controversy by misstating the nature or intent of this discussion.
::These were special case regulations for a special deal Immo brokered. Other than the placement of one series, they had nothing to do with the general Tier system, and due to Immo's decision not to accept the deal, they don't matter anymore. I see no reason to discuss them further.
:::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 16:11, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
::::Technically, though Immo hasn't "accepted" this, the guidelines have been followed, be it intentionally or otherwise. Does that not count for something? So the pages will be deleted/altered because the deal "doesnt matter", even though the pages have been updated, without any need of admin interference? Which, I assumed, was the whole point in the first place? 
::::Also, I don't like the use of the word "rules" - rules seem to make updating the pages feel more like work than doing it purely because you want to. [[User:Babygurl1853|Babygurl1853]] 22:47, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::I think as you guys manage to keep the upkeep on the series, it'll be fine. Of course, Ren was put in charge of making the deal, so who knows. As for the wording, would "general guidelines" be better? It all just semantics, you know. - [[User:Shiori|Shiori]] 22:56, 17 March 2008 (CDT)

:::::Babygurl, I think you misunderstand - that was exactly the point I was trying to make above. The regulations are so broad and lax that you could easily have followed them with no change of behavior. It would have been a mere formality to state you are willing to adhere to them and that you understand that, if you fail to do that, we'll convert the pages into a more managable format. Most likely, you would never have heard of the regulations again. It's merely a question of having someone officially responsible to keep the pages up-to-date, so no one can go "I didn't know I was supposed to do that!" afterwards. Immo was the one complaining, Immo is the creator of this series, Immo brokered the deal, thus, Immo was the one discussed. If you want to go rogue and take the responsibility yourself, fine with me. In case you don't know, it's a whole lot of work to delete a section as large as the Flock, and I'd much rather not have to do that. But we can't just keep it around without no one being responsible for the pages. 
:::::So, if you feel you can keep the pages updated within the above-mentioned regulations (and I, personally, have no doubt about that - I designed them generously on purpose) and you are aware we'll convert the pages if that doesn't happen, ''and'' you are willing to be responsible for making sure that happens, then fine. Just publically, formally, officially state that. The important thing is that you officially assume responsibility for the Flock UGC pages (likely, we'd contact you on issues regarding them, too), and that you clearly state you are aware the pages will be downgraded and converted if they go unmaintained as defined in the regulations.
:::::If you can do that, fine. I really don't care if Immo is the one responsible, we just need ''someone'' responsible. And so far, no one volunteered.
::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 23:42, 17 March 2008 (CDT)
:::::::(raises hand) I'll do it. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 23:05, 23 March 2008 (EST)

::::::::You understand that we're granting The Flock a higher Tier on the condition that it'll stay maintained and up-to-date, that the regulations above are the criteria under which we will evaluate whether the pages are maintained and up-to-date, and that we will collapse the Flock into a more managable state should they go unmaintained?
:::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 22:36, 23 March 2008 (CDT)
::::::::::Yep. Though I want to repropose an adjustment I suggested earlier: ''That would be in the case we had a few weeks ago, where a new character is added who has a number of videos that need to be added, in that case, the transcription deadline could be extended while the others remain the same.'' Other than that, I find the guidelines easily met and have no objections. I spend a lot of time maintaining that section anyway, so I understand the responsibility and I believe I can supervise it so it stays up to the standards listed above. --[[User:FH14|FH14]] 12:04, 24 March 2008 (EST)

:::::::::::That sounds reasonable to me. '''Yes''', under those conditions, it might obviously take some time to update everything, and you  do not have to fear that.
:::::::::::Thank you for volunteering to do this. I'll go update the Tier list. :)
::::::::::::~ [[User:Renegade|Renegade]] ([[User talk:Renegade|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Renegade|contribs]]) 14:38, 24 March 2008 (CDT)