LGPedia - User contributions [en]

User talk:72.200.30.170

2006-11-30T17:07:14Z

72.200.30.170:

Thanks for your Crowley correction. i added back a piece about Hubbard but its modified to accomodate your objection.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 11:51, 29 November 2006 (CST)

Ok...no problem. I've been spending a lot of time with my girlfriend, but I'll do my best to help out in the next couple of days.

Talk:Chrisitian cults

2006-11-30T17:06:25Z

72.200.30.170:

I notice in several places where it references christian cults as in here, it's actually misspelled as chrisitian cults. Is there anyway to fix the spelling of this article and the references to it?

Aleister Crowley

2006-11-29T17:32:09Z

72.200.30.170: /* People Crowley knew */ Crowley didn't know LaVey. LaVey was still a teen when Crowley died. Crowley knew OF Hubbard, but there is no evidence they knew each other...only through Parsons

[[Image:Crowleyshrine.jpg|thumb|295px|Freeze frame of the picture of Aleister Crowley that hangs on Bree's wall.]]

===Introduction===
'''Aleister Crowley''' (1875-1947) (last name rhymes with "holy") was a figure in late 19th and early 20th century occultism. [[Bree]] has a picture of him on the wall of her bedroom (above her bookcase, to the left of her door), leading many to assume that [[Bree's religion|her religion]] is affiliated in some way with [[Thelema]].

Crowley grew up in a strict [[Plymouth Brethren]] family where his mother often referred to him as the "Beast of Revelation". This may have been the catalyst for him to pursue alternative spirituality.

Crowley and [[Arthur Edward Waite]] (1857-1942) were rivals in the early days of the [[Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn]], and after leaving to found rival organizations (Crowley first the '''Argenteum Astrum''' and then a faction of the [[Ordo Templi Orientis]] and Waite the [[Fellowship of the Rosy Cross]]), the men mocked each other in published works.

Crowley's life largely consisted of exploring the far reaches of the once great British Empire, studying various forms of Vajrayana Buddhism, theosophy, occultism, ceremonial magick, and ancient ritual. He incorporated these into his own comprehensive methodology called Magick in an extensive body of literature consisting of poetry, prose, essays, and syncretized occultism.

Dubbed the "Wickedest Man in the World" by the British yellow press, Crowley is perhaps best known for his seemingly contradictory but esoterically linked instructions, "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, Love under Will". He is also associated with the number '''93''', used by devotees as a shorthand for these sayings. These statements are pulled from Crowley's masterwork around which his entire life and body of literature attempted to extrapolate, The Book of the Law or Liber Al vel Legis.

In 1920 he and [http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/article/4687 a small group of followers moved to Cefalu, in Sicily], where they established what would now be called a [[commune]] and devoted their time to sex, magic, and drugs. In one video [[Bree]] mentions living on a commune in New Zealand.

Alister Crowley has had an [http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/Aleister_Crowley influence on Rock and Roll music] although none of this music is used in the music of [[Lonelygirl15]]. There are many connections between [[Jimmy Page]] of the rock band [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin Led Zeppelin] and Aleister Crowley.

In the video [[Aleister Crowley (Video)|Aleister Crowley]], [[Daniel]] reads a story from an unspecified Arizona newspaper that associates Crowley with [[1943 abduction|an abduction in 1943]].

Crowley's birthday is October 12, which was the date of the [[Bree's ritual|fake ceremony]] that [[Lucy]] used to trick [[Daniel]]. The occasion is casually celebrated by modern Thelemites under the title of Crowleymas, typically with curry, orgia, and wine.

===The Book of the Law===
In "The Book of the Law" Crowley give a receipt for the [[Cakes of Light]] and one of the ingedients is the blood of a child.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
"Love is the law, love under will"

===The Book of the Dead===
Crowley translated the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_dead Book of the Dead]. The book was written in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_language Egyptian]. Books of the Dead constituted a collection of spells, charms, passwords, numbers and magical formulae for the use of the deceased in the afterlife. [http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0220.html A text version of The Book of the Law] is available on the internet. The book of the dead has been linked to the fictional work Necronomicon (see the next section).

===Cake of Light===

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cake_of_Light According to Wikipedia], Cake of Light is the name of the eucharistic host found within [[Thelema]], the mystical system founded by Aleister Crowley in the early 20th century. It contains meal, honey, and oil for the base ingrediants, and is usually cooked in the shape of a small, flat wafer. It appears by name in two important Thelemic rituals: the Gnostic Mass and the Mass of the Phoenix. However, Crowley thought it was important for magicians to perform a eucharistic ritual of some kind daily (from [[Magick]], Book 4, ch. 20):

===Necronomicon===
The [[Necronomicon]] is a dangerous book involving ways to open gates of hell. Many of the ways need virgins. [[Cthulhu]] is the Keeper for one of the gates of hell. By its mythology, the Necronomicon (meaning The Book of Dead Names) was written by Abdul Alhazrad over 1,000 years ago, after he witnessed a mysterious group of priests summoning demons in the Arabian desert. The mythology of the Necronomicon was popularized by [[H.P. Lovecraft]] in the early 20th century in a seriees of short stories taking place in Massachusetts and related to the fictional Miskatonic University.

[http://homepages.pavilion.co.uk/glyng/necronomicon.html More details on necronomicon].

===Aleister Crowley and Buddism===
Aleister Crowley was a [ n|buddist] when he received the Book of the Law and hence a lot of his beliefs draw on that influence. This is discussed by a YouTuber called [http://www.youtube.com/user/tannhaus tannhaus] in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaLIWtXJ1Bg A Thelmite Speaks Episode 6].

===People Crowley knew===
Among the influential contemporary religious leaders that Crowley knew are [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Regardie Israel Regardie]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons Jack Parsons], and [http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/Allan_Bennett Allan Bennett]

===Speculation on a Moonchild===
Based on the Crowley book [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonchild Moonchild] some people have speculated that Bree may have been impregnated at [http://lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php/Bree%27s_ritual the ceremony].

===Aleister Crowley and Baphomet===
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathomet According to Wikipedia]: 'The [[Baphomet]] of Lévi was to become an important figure within the cosmology of [[Thelema]], the mystical system established by Aleister Crowley in the early 20th century.'

===Geneology===
[http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2006/04/george-w-bush-barbara-bush-and.html Evidence points to the possibility] that Aleister Crowley was the true father of Barbara Bush, the former First Lady and mother to George W. Bush who was a member of a secret organization called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_bones Skull and Bones] at Yale University.

==Outside links==
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley Aleister Crowley] (Wikipedia Article)
*[http://www.oto-usa.org/crowley.html OTO page on Aleister Crowley. OTO is initiatory society continuing his work.]
*[http://sourceryforge.org/index.php/Aleister_Crowley Aleister Crowley] Article at Sourceryforge,the Esoteric-Occult Wiki
*[http://www.illuminati-news.com/aleister_crowley1.htm Aleister Crowley The Greatest Magician of the 20th Century?]
*[http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/glor_001/unclealsirians.htm Aleister Crowley and the "Sirians"]
*[http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/white.htm Aleisster Crowley and 1943]
*[http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/crowley.htm Crowley]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_del_Campo Gerald del Campo “On the Use of Blood in Ritual” 1986]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gardner Gerald Gardner]
*[http://www.thewhitegoddess.co.uk/introduction/aleister_crowley.asp Fact Sheet on Aleister Crowley]
*[http://www.controverscial.com/Aleister%20Crowley.htm Aleister Crowley (1875-1947)]
*[http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/aleister-crowley/ Aleister Crowley]
*[http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2669/Crowley.html Aleister Crowley Satanic Verses {1875-1947}]
*[http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/confess/chapter29.html The Confessions of Aleister Crowley]
*[http://www.cix.co.uk/~mandrake/crowley.htm Crowley Fact Sheet]

1943 abduction

2006-11-29T15:15:21Z

72.200.30.170:

In the video [[Aleister Crowley (Video)|Aleister Crowley]], Daniel mentions finding an article about "1943...from a small town in Arizona. It's about a girl that had been abducted. And the weird thing is it mentions [[Aleister Crowley]]. He uh... He had this house in town, and it was right around that time when the disappearance happened. But nothing ever came of it, because...he went back to England before they could even investigate."

As of yet, nobody has been able to find the article Daniel mentions, or any mention of the incident outside of Daniel's video. The details are rather vague. In actuality, Crowley never had a house in Arizona. This incident is complete fiction.

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-22T11:21:32Z

72.200.30.170:

This page is pretty disjointed, full of spelling and grammatical errors, as well as being a bit factually inaccurate: ie. the Knights Templar were not a secret society, but an actual order of knights. Their actual name was The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon. They were a christian military order that took part in the crusades.

Part of the beauty of a wiki is that if you see errors you can make corrections Your assistance in that process is certainly welcome. Some of the spelling errors are with a quote. In time we can probably analyse the quote and repace it with more accurate information.......but for now it serves as a starting point.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 16:37, 18 November 2006 (PST)

The last edit created a nice summary of the Knighs but its almost a Wikipedia style article and I know that takes a lot of work so its great. However our goal here is to relate the Knights to the LG story or at least to the religious speculation that surrounds the story line. Some of the original information tried to do that and it would be nice if we could integrete that into the excellent reference material that has been added in the last edit.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)

I really don't understand how that would be possible. Bree already said she wasn't a christian and we're talking about an order of christian monks/warriors that really don't fit. So, I just typed out what I knew about the Templars.

:it would be good if you could add that information. Negative information that suggest something is not true is just as useuful to people like myself who are researching the topic. You make a good point and it would be great to have that incorporated into the page.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Well, the problem I see with all this is that the Creators have stated it's not a real order or religion...that they've made it up as a work of fiction. So, no amount of trying to tie a real order in with it will work...because once you start investigating the real order, you realize that things do not fit. There are things from numerous real orders that DO fit, but if you take those similarities and try to say it's that order, you begin running into all the reasons that it can't be that order....because none of this aligns with any one order...and wasn't meant to. This order that Bree belongs to takes many inspirations, but doesn't exist in reality.

That was also my problem with trying to insinuate it was the OTO. For one, I'm a member of the OTO. It is something I cherish and hold dear. For someone to insinuate Bree's order is the OTO, it's virtually the same as accusing our order of cultlike behaviour: disregarding the wills of others and usurping them through threats and violence, kidnapping, etc. So, it's really a huge insult to try and pin this on a real order. For another, the OTO is not only a thelemic order, it's the largest group of thelemites in the world. So, by saying it's not Thelema, the creators are saying there is no way possible it's the OTO. This scenario is MUCH like someone saying "I'm not a christian" and the other replying "So, are you a Catholic then?"

So, I personally have problems with trying to pin Bree's order on any one order...partially because I've studied at least some about many of these orders and realize it can't be them, partially because I know the creators borrowed aspects of many different groups to make this order, and partially because of the insult factor involved with insinuating any legitimate order would be engaged in this type of criminal and otherwise terrible behaviour.

I haven't gotten around to making an account in here...and I guess I should do that soon. But, my IP address rarely changes so it's a good indicator of me. But, I'm tannhaus. I don't participate in the forums anymore..I stated my reasons there. I do, however, comment to the videos themselves at times, post video responses, and participate a bit in here. I do not know whether it was cast or crew that responded to my email. I've debated at times whether I should post the email that was sent to me. But, considering it might be helpful to others in seeing how the creators are drawing from many different sources, I will here. My email I sent to them was:

"I'm interested to know why the Creators took a real religion (Thelema) that has been much maligned in the past, the prophet of Thelema (Crowley), also much maligned, and make a series that is the very antithesis of Thelema and what Crowley worked his whole life to promulgate.

As a Thelemite, it's very disheartening to see my religion maligned and bashed once again, all for nothing. It does not add anything to your series to associate your cult with our religion. So, why do it?"

And their reply was:

"We understand and appreciate your question. Please know that it is not our intention to malign or discredit the Thelema religion. The religion we have created for this series is entirely fictional. It is as much related to fictional Chrisitain cults and secret societies as it is to Thelema."

If this upsets anyone involved in the making of the series that I would make this public, please remove it and I'll take that to mean that I shouldn't in the future.

:Wow, that was incredibly insightful. Thank you very much for that. This is the first knowledge I have of the statement that the creators admitted that [[Bree's religion]] was ficticious. I had come to the conclusion that it was probably a combination of religions or orders and I think what we want to do in the LGpedia is identify what has been drawn from where and how it could all be fit together to make something that makes sense. Please understand that many of us are new to these topics and have only been drawn in by the LG series. People like myself know little more than what they read on wikipedia. Further any statements made by characters about what is true or not cannot be believed because of the nature of the series. Hence they only real information we have is the e-mail you received. That becomes a critical document in the history of [[LG15]] and I hope that you will share it in a relevant article. You could also be of great value in guiding those of us who are new thru the various orders etc. Our goal here is not to insult anyone and if i contribued it was through lack of education about the topic. This started out as a source of entertainment and fun and I dont think anyone considerd the impact on those in the real world. In a way the series is a weird mixture of the real and the fictional and thats whats what makes it a little tricky. Still it should be our goal on LGpedia to link things to the LG story line and thats what we try to do. I certainly dont believe that The Oder is real for a number of reason, but that does not make it any less fun to document and explore. Some of that process involves exploration of groups such as the O.T. O. and we are very privaledged to have someon with your experience guide us. Hopefully if we work together we can create an LGpedia thats informative about these groups, shows how they are relevant and then clearly indicates how the real world groups differ from the ficticion land of LG15.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 03:17, 21 November 2006 (CST)

;Incidentally did you sent your e-mail before or after the Gemma video where she said it was not Thelema. If it truly is not connected then you might try asking the creators to remove the sign for Thelema from the Lonelygirl15 website. Its details like that that make me think Gemma is a liar. Perhaps her comment was actually in response to your e-mail--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 03:17, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Well, after that reply from them, I sent the following reply:

"Well, my concern about this is even though you've made a fictional religion for the series, you use the prophet of Thelema, the unicursal hexagram - a symbol of Thelema, and actually write Thelema in greek at the bottom of your website. You and I both know what you're portraying has nothing to do with Thelema, but by writing out the name of the religion and using these other trappings of the religion, anything you say about Bree's religion makes it seem like you're saying it about Thelema...since you've indicated Thelema so much.

I would personally like to see Bree say that she's not a Thelemite...or that her religion isn't Thelema, in the videos. Since you've done so much to align it with Thelema in the minds of the viewers by using these symbols and the actual name of our religion, it would be a very nice gesture to see you distance yourself from a very real religion that some of your viewers hold dear to their hearts.

As you can see from the forums and the replies to your videos, people think the religion is Thelema and, if you look at all the elements you've incorporated into the website, you've practically spelled Thelema out for them. So, like I said, it would be a very nice gesture to see Bree distance herself from the religion of Thelema.

I personally like the videos and the style of entertainment you've provided, but think it could stand on its own just as well without bashing a religion, however inadvertently, in the process. I really do hope you consider this request. As thelemites we have endured many lies, malicious and ignorant, about our beliefs and our prophet. It would really be nice of you to distance yourself from that and not add to it.

Thank you and 93"

I sent that on November 5th at 12:45 AM. They didn't reply. Gemma's video was on November 9th. So, I took it to be their reply. I sent another email after the video thanking them, they replied to it and said no problem...that they're always out there listening to the fans. I personally am extremely grateful for their going the extra mile on this. It proves they do care about what implications their videos have.

As far as the OTO or any other group of thelemites being related to Bree's religion, I came into the forums to dispel that notion, John Crow, on thelemacoasttocoast, mentioned it in his series and dispelled the notion, and basically thelemites came out of the woodwork to say "This in no way resembles Thelema". For one, the law of Thelema is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under Will". For a brief explanation of that you can see: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib2.html . You may not understand that entirely, but it'll give you some idea that it doesn't mean what it appears to at face value.

Also, if you read the commentary to the Book of the Law which is here: http://www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comments.html then you will find where Crowley says "Interference with the will of another is the great sin". So, the very fact that they're trying to force anyone to do anything against their will flies totally in the face of Thelema and is the antithesis of what we believe in. That doesn't take into account the kidnapping and cult-like behaviour. Just the fact they're trying to force someone to do something is bad enough.

Well, I hope this helps.

Oh...as far as thelema being at the bottom in greek, darbyite designs is there also. Darbyite refers to the plymouth brethren. You can't take one as referring to bree's religion and not the other...there are two religions represented on the bottom of that website, both having nothing to do with each other, but everything to do with Crowley.

: Again wow!!! A totally facinating account of events and to be honest I would like to see the emails posted within an article. You have convince me that you are either the genuine article or an insider trying to throw me off course. The good news is that I am 99.99 percent sure you are the former and I am glad you have shared this information. The reason your emails need to be in an article is that without official confirmation its hard to get people like me to reverse course. And you are absolutely correct in saying that many clues pointed to Thelema, so of course when Gemma's video cam out I concluded that it had to be a ploy by the creators to throw us off course. LG15 has cause everyone to be highly suspicious of any information related it it. I need to do a bit more reading and straighten out the relationship between Crowley and Thelema because the Crowley evidence is what sparked all of this off in the first place. I am going to try and help you fix up LGpedia to help you resolve your concerns but it may take a little time and hopefully a bit of feedback from you. Its incredibly valuable having an educated person like youself available to contribute. I probably have been responsible for a lot of specultation but in my defense i was only following the clues and as you point out they were laid out like bread crumbs to lead to certain conclusions. I even tried to confirm that the creators had direct control over the Lonelygirl.com web site which had been disputed in the beginning. However I believe that thats now officially confirmed. Perhaps you could let the creators know what they could do to remove any confusion via the design elements on the web site.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 08:35, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:I added the following to the [[Bree's religion]] page. I will let you "publish" your e-mails to support the assention if you choose to do so and it would really really really help! We have never had much from the Creators and the emails you got are incredibly informative.

''Note that the Creators have indicated by email (source withheld at this time) that Bree's religion, to the extent that it is a religion, is not a real world religion but rather a ficticious creation that draws from a number of influences. To the extent that real world religions are referred to in this section it should be solely for the purpose of showing what influence was drawn from the groups. Certain religions may take offense by elements of the LG15 story line so please approach this subject with that in mind.'' --[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 09:17, 21 November 2006 (CST)

:Also, what do you think of this information: http://www.redicecreations.com/specialreports/2005/12dec/knightstemplars.html. Its the origin source of the earlier claim that the Knight Templar were a secret society.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 09:32, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Thank you very much. As far as the emails, you now have the information...so you can add them to an article if you wish. If they email me and tell me that I shouldn't have done that, I'll let you know and we can remove them. Otherwise, do what you think is right.

As far as the source for the Knights Templar info....I wouldn't consider that site a very credible source of information. Just looking over it, it looks way too hokey. Of course, things were done inside the Templar enclaves to be kept from the outside world....but that's most likely true of all ancient orders...military or otherwise. But, first and foremost, they were an order of christian warrior monks.

Thank you very much for your compliments. If you wish to a little about what Thelema is really like, check out my "A Thelemite Speaks" series. I made it to introduce thelemic thoughts and culture to those just coming into contact with Thelema. You might enjoy it.

:OK, I posted the email (http://www.lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php?title=Email_exchange_with_the_creators) and linked them to the disclaimer on the [[Bree's religion]] pages. Thats a start. In time we can adapt any of the other information that might leave the wrong impression but at least that should clarify whats going on for other uses (many of us were totally confused by the Gemma video......it may have been a noble attempt but it made lilttle sense in the context of all the other clues that had been left).--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 11:15, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Note: I just added a page called [[Do what thou wilt]] so you may want to help fill out the details on that page.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 02:39, 22 November 2006 (CST)

Ok...that's very cool. Something that may help you out is http://www.thelemapedia.org It's a wikipedia made by the thelemic community. I'm spending some quality time with my girlfriend and then my parents for Thanksgiving...so I'll be in short supply for a couple of days.

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-22T11:20:44Z

72.200.30.170:

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-21T16:31:51Z

72.200.30.170:

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-21T14:12:56Z

72.200.30.170:

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-21T09:44:12Z

72.200.30.170:

This page is pretty disjointed, full of spelling and grammatical errors, as well as being a bit factually inaccurate: ie. the Knights Templar were not a secret society, but an actual order of knights. Their actual name was The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon. They were a christian military order that took part in the crusades.

Part of the beauty of a wiki is that if you see errors you can make corrections Your assistance in that process is certainly welcome. Some of the spelling errors are with a quote. In time we can probably analyse the quote and repace it with more accurate information.......but for now it serves as a starting point.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 16:37, 18 November 2006 (PST)

The last edit created a nice summary of the Knighs but its almost a Wikipedia style article and I know that takes a lot of work so its great. However our goal here is to relate the Knights to the LG story or at least to the religious speculation that surrounds the story line. Some of the original information tried to do that and it would be nice if we could integrete that into the excellent reference material that has been added in the last edit.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 10:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)

I really don't understand how that would be possible. Bree already said she wasn't a christian and we're talking about an order of christian monks/warriors that really don't fit. So, I just typed out what I knew about the Templars.

:it would be good if you could add that information. Negative information that suggest something is not true is just as useuful to people like myself who are researching the topic. You make a good point and it would be great to have that incorporated into the page.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Well, the problem I see with all this is that the Creators have stated it's not a real order or religion...that they've made it up as a work of fiction. So, no amount of trying to tie a real order in with it will work...because once you start investigating the real order, you realize that things do not fit. There are things from numerous real orders that DO fit, but if you take those similarities and try to say it's that order, you begin running into all the reasons that it can't be that order....because none of this aligns with any one order...and wasn't meant to. This order that Bree belongs to takes many inspirations, but doesn't exist in reality.

That was also my problem with trying to insinuate it was the OTO. For one, I'm a member of the OTO. It is something I cherish and hold dear. For someone to insinuate Bree's order is the OTO, it's virtually the same as accusing our order of cultlike behaviour: disregarding the wills of others and usurping them through threats and violence, kidnapping, etc. So, it's really a huge insult to try and pin this on a real order. For another, the OTO is not only a thelemic order, it's the largest group of thelemites in the world. So, by saying it's not Thelema, the creators are saying there is no way possible it's the OTO. This scenario is MUCH like someone saying "I'm not a christian" and the other replying "So, are you a Catholic then?"

So, I personally have problems with trying to pin Bree's order on any one order...partially because I've studied at least some about many of these orders and realize it can't be them, partially because I know the creators borrowed aspects of many different groups to make this order, and partially because of the insult factor involved with insinuating any legitimate order would be engaged in this type of criminal and otherwise terrible behaviour.

I haven't gotten around to making an account in here...and I guess I should do that soon. But, my IP address rarely changes so it's a good indicator of me. But, I'm tannhaus. I don't participate in the forums anymore..I stated my reasons there. I do, however, comment to the videos themselves at times, post video responses, and participate a bit in here. I do not know whether it was cast or crew that responded to my email. I've debated at times whether I should post the email that was sent to me. But, considering it might be helpful to others in seeing how the creators are drawing from many different sources, I will here. My email I sent to them was:

"I'm interested to know why the Creators took a real religion (Thelema) that has been much maligned in the past, the prophet of Thelema (Crowley), also much maligned, and make a series that is the very antithesis of Thelema and what Crowley worked his whole life to promulgate.

As a Thelemite, it's very disheartening to see my religion maligned and bashed once again, all for nothing. It does not add anything to your series to associate your cult with our religion. So, why do it?"

And their reply was:

"We understand and appreciate your question. Please know that it is not our intention to malign or discredit the Thelema religion. The religion we have created for this series is entirely fictional. It is as much related to fictional Chrisitain cults and secret societies as it is to Thelema."

If this upsets anyone involved in the making of the series that I would make this public, please remove it and I'll take that to mean that I shouldn't in the future.

:Wow, that was incredibly insightful. Thank you very much for that. This is the first knowledge I have of the statement that the creators admitted that [[Bree's religion]] was ficticious. I had come to the conclusion that it was probably a combination of religions or orders and I think what we want to do in the LGpedia is identify what has been drawn from where and how it could all be fit together to make something that makes sense. Please understand that many of us are new to these topics and have only been drawn in by the LG series. People like myself know little more than what they read on wikipedia. Further any statements made by characters about what is true or not cannot be believed because of the nature of the series. Hence they only real information we have is the e-mail you received. That becomes a critical document in the history of [[LG15]] and I hope that you will share it in a relevant article. You could also be of great value in guiding those of us who are new thru the various orders etc. Our goal here is not to insult anyone and if i contribued it was through lack of education about the topic. This started out as a source of entertainment and fun and I dont think anyone considerd the impact on those in the real world. In a way the series is a weird mixture of the real and the fictional and thats whats what makes it a little tricky. Still it should be our goal on LGpedia to link things to the LG story line and thats what we try to do. I certainly dont believe that The Oder is real for a number of reason, but that does not make it any less fun to document and explore. Some of that process involves exploration of groups such as the O.T. O. and we are very privaledged to have someon with your experience guide us. Hopefully if we work together we can create an LGpedia thats informative about these groups, shows how they are relevant and then clearly indicates how the real world groups differ from the ficticion land of LG15.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 03:17, 21 November 2006 (CST)

;Incidentally did you sent your e-mail before or after the Gemma video where she said it was not Thelema. If it truly is not connected then you might try asking the creators to remove the sign for Thelema from the Lonelygirl15 website. Its details like that that make me think Gemma is a liar. Perhaps her comment was actually in response to your e-mail--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 03:17, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Well, after that reply from them, I sent the following reply:

"Well, my concern about this is even though you've made a fictional religion for the series, you use the prophet of Thelema, the unicursal hexagram - a symbol of Thelema, and actually write Thelema in greek at the bottom of your website. You and I both know what you're portraying has nothing to do with Thelema, but by writing out the name of the religion and using these other trappings of the religion, anything you say about Bree's religion makes it seem like you're saying it about Thelema...since you've indicated Thelema so much.

I would personally like to see Bree say that she's not a Thelemite...or that her religion isn't Thelema, in the videos. Since you've done so much to align it with Thelema in the minds of the viewers by using these symbols and the actual name of our religion, it would be a very nice gesture to see you distance yourself from a very real religion that some of your viewers hold dear to their hearts.

As you can see from the forums and the replies to your videos, people think the religion is Thelema and, if you look at all the elements you've incorporated into the website, you've practically spelled Thelema out for them. So, like I said, it would be a very nice gesture to see Bree distance herself from the religion of Thelema.

I personally like the videos and the style of entertainment you've provided, but think it could stand on its own just as well without bashing a religion, however inadvertently, in the process. I really do hope you consider this request. As thelemites we have endured many lies, malicious and ignorant, about our beliefs and our prophet. It would really be nice of you to distance yourself from that and not add to it.

Thank you and 93"

I sent that on November 5th at 12:45 AM. They didn't reply. Gemma's video was on November 9th. So, I took it to be their reply. I sent another email after the video thanking them, they replied to it and said no problem...that they're always out there listening to the fans. I personally am extremely grateful for their going the extra mile on this. It proves they do care about what implications their videos have.

As far as the OTO or any other group of thelemites being related to Thelema, I came into the forums to dispel that notion, John Crow, on thelemacoasttocoast, mentioned it in his series and dispelled the notion, and basically thelemites came out of the woodwork to say "This in no way resembles Thelema". For one, the law of Thelema is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Love is the law, love under Will". For a brief explanation of that you can see: http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib2.html . You may not understand that entirely, but it'll give you some idea that it doesn't mean what it appears to at face value.

Also, if you read the commentary to the Book of the Law which is here: http://www.hermetic.com/220/crowley-comments.html then you will find where Crowley says "Interference with the will of another is the great sin". So, the very fact that they're trying to force anyone to do anything against their will flies totally in the face of Thelema and is the antithesis of what we believe in. That doesn't take into account the kidnapping and cult-like behaviour. Just the fact they're trying to force someone to do something is bad enough.

Well, I hope this helps.

Oh...as far as thelema being at the bottom in greek, darbyite designs is there also. Darbyite refers to the plymouth brethren. You can't take one as referring to bree's religion and not the other...there are two religions represented on the bottom of that website, both having nothing to do with each other, but everything to do with Crowley.

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-21T09:42:27Z

72.200.30.170:

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-21T08:04:31Z

72.200.30.170:

Talk:Rosemary's Baby

2006-11-21T07:44:01Z

72.200.30.170:

This rosemary's baby suggestion has been raised on an off a few times, but it seems kind of outlandish to merit its own lgpedia page. just sayin . . . . --[[User:Milowent|Milowent]] 15:56, 20 November 2006 (CST)

:Anyone who put a picture of Aleister Crowley on her bedroom wall if capable of just about anything. Given how the plot of the movie seem to be similar to Moonchild i dont think its so outlandish!!!--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 15:58, 20 November 2006 (CST)

What's so bad about a picture of Aleister Crowley? He was a holy man.

:I did not say he was a bad man (wikipedia might call him the wickeded man alive but thats their opinion). What i said is that he wrote Moonchild and there are similarities between that and Rosemary's baby. Given all the occult references in LG its quite possible the similarity is significant and hence the page is a valid contribution to LGpedia. I personally hope that the story does develop in that direction but only time will tell.--[[User:Modelmotion|modelmotion]] 18:10, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Well, the similarities are very base. In Rosemary's baby, you have someone who was duped into carrying Satan's child. Then duped into delivering the child and having the satanists steal it from her. In Moonchild you have a satire of various members of the Golden Dawn during Crowley's time in which light strives against darkness...a woman undertakes a magickal operation to carry the moonchild...and the black lodge is trying to stop it.

Talk:Rosemary's Baby

2006-11-20T23:36:41Z

72.200.30.170:

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-20T21:48:33Z

72.200.30.170:

Talk:Knights Templar

2006-11-18T18:43:36Z

72.200.30.170:

The Order

2006-11-14T11:50:58Z

72.200.30.170: Well, how about this from the creators: "Please know that it is not our intention to malign or discredit the Thelema religion. The religion we have created for this series is entirely fictional."

In [[Learning Egyptian]], [[Gemmers19]] claims that [[Bree's religion]] is not a religion at all but a [[Secret Society]].

According to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28group%29 Wikipedia]: "The Order (also called the Silent Brotherhood and Aryan Resistance Movement) was a neo-Nazi organization active in the United States between 1983 and 1984. The Order described themselves as a “white nationalist revolutionary group”‘." It is not yet clear if this is same group as that referred to in the LG15 storyline.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28Deus_Ex%29 Wikipedia] also talks about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28Deus_Ex%29 Order (Deus Ex)] which is "a fictional transdenominational religious group set in the computer and video game Deus Ex: Invisible War."

Another possible meaning would be [[Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn]] which Aleister Crowley once belonged to. However, "the Order" is most likely just a shorthand way of saying "[[The Order of Denderah]]" as is a common practice amongst order members, regardless of the order they belong to.

Yet other possibilities are [[The Order Of The Blood]], [[The Order of the Big Bang]] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosicrucian the Rosicrucian Order].

===External Links===
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28group%29 The Order] (Wikipedia article]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28Deus_Ex%29 Order (Deus Ex)] (Wikipedia article]

The Order

2006-11-14T08:02:18Z

72.200.30.170: The OTO is a thelemic organization. It cannot be the OTO since it has been said it's not Thelema. Please leave the OTO out of this.

LG15 Spin-offs

2006-11-13T05:23:15Z

72.200.30.170: /* Series which comment on the Breeniverse */

__NOTOC__
==Characters and series==

===Series which comment on the [[Breeniverse]]===
* [[TWJaniak]]
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=SACREDfilms Students of Anchor Cove Rallying to Eliminate Degeneracy]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snLtHgHmjDk "Throwing Stars, Breaking Hearts"], a mashup film of askaninja and the lonelygirl15 videos.
* [[Immant]]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAo7-EqreB4 Video Assassin]
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=NikkiBowerReport NikkiBowerReport]
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=tannhaus Tannhaus and his A Thelemite Speaks series]

===Series commenting on [[cassieiswatching]]===
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=frankiswaking frankiswaking YouTube Account*]
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=etchings Etchings]
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=OpAphid OpAphid YouTube Account*]
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=RickKnowsWhy RickKnowsWhy]
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=cassieiswatching222 cassieiswatching222]
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=LordGreystoke422 LordGreystoke422]

* [[Frankiswaking]]
* [[OpAphid]]

==Collections==
* [http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=watchingcassie WatchingCassie] -- A YouTube fan account attempting to keep track of all LG15:Cassie related posts
* [http://www.youtube.com/ReporteroR CS] Lonelygirl15 videos translated to Spanish. Videos de Lonelygirl15 traducidos al español.

Aleister Crowley

2006-11-10T15:43:40Z

72.200.30.170: added pronunciation hint for Crowley's name

[[Image:Crowleyshrine.jpg|thumb|295px|Freeze frame of the picture of Aleister Crowley that hangs on Bree's wall.]]

===Introduction===
'''Aleister Crowley''' (1875-1947) (last name rhymes with "holy") was a figure in late 19th and early 20th century occultism. [[Bree]] has a picture of him on the wall of her bedroom (above her bookcase, to the left of her door), leading many to assume that [[Bree's religion|her religion]] is affiliated in some way with [[Thelema]].

Crowley grew up in a strict [[Plymouth Brethren]] family where his mother often referred to him as the "Beast of Revelation". This may have been the catalyst for him to pursue alternative spirituality.

Crowley and [[Arthur Edward Waite]] (1857-1942) were rivals in the early days of the [[Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn]], and after leaving to found rival organizations (Crowley first the '''Argenteum Astrum''' and then a faction of the [[Ordo Templi Orientis]] and Waite the [[Fellowship of the Rosy Cross]]), the men mocked each other in published works.

Crowley's life largely consisted of exploring the far reaches of the once great British Empire, studying various forms of Vajrayana Buddhism, theosophy, occultism, ceremonial magick, and ancient ritual. He incorporated these into his own comprehensive methodology called Magick in an extensive body of literature consisting of poetry, prose, essays, and syncretized occultism.

Dubbed the "Wickedest Man in the World" by the British yellow press, Crowley is perhaps best known for his seemingly contradictory but esoterically linked instructions, "Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, Love under Will". He is also associated with the number '''93''', used by devotees as a shorthand for these sayings. These statements are pulled from Crowley's masterwork around which his entire life and body of literature attempted to extrapolate, The Book of the Law or Liber Al vel Legis.

In 1920 he and [http://www.llewellynencyclopedia.com/article/4687 a small group of followers moved to Cefalu, in Sicily], where they established what would now be called a [[commune]] and devoted their time to sex, magic, and drugs. In one video [[Bree]] mentions living on a commune in New Zealand.

Alister Crowley has had an [http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/Aleister_Crowley influence on Rock and Roll music] although none of this music is used in the music of [[Lonelygirl15]].

In the video [[Aleister Crowley (Video)|Aleister Crowley]], [[Daniel]] reads a story from an unspecified Arizona newspaper that associates Crowley with [[1943 abduction|an abduction in 1943]].

Crowley's birthday is October 12, which was the date of the [[Bree's ritual|fake ceremony]] that [[Lucy]] used to trick [[Daniel]]. The occasion is casually celebrated by modern Thelemites under the title of Crowleymas, typically with curry, orgia, and wine.

===The Book of the Law===
In "[[The Book of the Law]]" Crowley give a receipt for the [[Cakes of Light]] and one of the ingedients is the blood of a child.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"
"Love is the law, love under will"

===The Book of the Dead===
Crowley translated the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_dead Book of the Dead]. The book was written in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language Sumerian] on skin and written in blood. [http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0220.html A text version of The Book of the Law] is available on the internet. Books of the Dead constituted a collection of spells, charms, passwords, numbers and magical formulae for the use of the deceased in the afterlife.

===Necronomicon===
The [[Necronomicon]] is a dangerous book involving ways to open gates of hell. Many of the ways need virgins. [[Cthulhu]] is the Keeper for one of the gates of hell.

[http://homepages.pavilion.co.uk/glyng/necronomicon.html More details on necronomicon].

===People Crowley knew===
Among the influential contemporary religious leader that Crowley knew are [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Regardie Israel Regardie]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Parsons Jack Parsons] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubb L. Ron Hubbard]

===Speculation on a [[Moonchild]]===
Based on the Crowley book [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonchild Moonchild] some people have speculated that Bree may have been impregnated at [http://lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php/Bree%27s_ritual the ceremony].

===Geneology===
[http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2006/04/george-w-bush-barbara-bush-and.html Evidence points to the possibility] that Aleister Crowley was the true father of Barbara Bush, the former First Lady and mother to George W. Bush who was a member of a secret organization called [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_and_bones Skull and Bones] at Yale University.

==Outside links==
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley Aleister Crowley] (Wikipedia Article)
*[http://www.oto-usa.org/crowley.html OTO page on Aleister Crowley. OTO is initiatory society continuing his work.]
*[http://sourceryforge.org/index.php/Aleister_Crowley Aleister Crowley] Article at Sourceryforge,the Esoteric-Occult Wiki
*[http://www.illuminati-news.com/aleister_crowley1.htm Aleister Crowley The Greatest Magician of the 20th Century?]
*[http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/glor_001/unclealsirians.htm Aleister Crowley and the "Sirians"]
*[http://user.cyberlink.ch/~koenig/white.htm Aleisster Crowley and 1943]
*[http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/crowley.htm Crowley]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_del_Campo Gerald del Campo “On the Use of Blood in Ritual” 1986]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gardner Gerald Gardner]
*[http://www.thewhitegoddess.co.uk/introduction/aleister_crowley.asp Fact Sheet on Aleister Crowley]
*[http://www.controverscial.com/Aleister%20Crowley.htm Aleister Crowley (1875-1947)]
*[http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/aleister-crowley/ Aleister Crowley]
*[http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2669/Crowley.html Aleister Crowley Satanic Verses {1875-1947}]
*[http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/confess/chapter29.html The Confessions of Aleister Crowley]
*[http://www.cix.co.uk/~mandrake/crowley.htm Crowley Fact Sheet]

Hymn of One

2006-11-10T15:42:02Z

72.200.30.170: add darbyite reference,occult reference and correct misspelling of Thelema.

'''Bree's religion''' has never been directly stated in the series, although many believe her to be a member of a [[Thelema|Thelemic]] religion of some sort or [[Argenteum Astrum]], as a picture of [[Aleister Crowley]] is prominently featured in her bedroom. Moreover, the word Thelema is written in Greek ([[Θέλημα]]) at the bottom of the page at [http://lonelygirl15.com lonelygirl15.com]. However, Darbyite Designs also appears at the bottom of the page, a reference to the Plymouth Brethren. Crowley was raised in the Plymouth Brethren sect. Both of these references then might not be references to her religion, but to Crowley instead.

Bree spent a long time preparing to undergo a [[Bree's ritual|ritual]] ceremony related to her religion. In [[The Ceremony Is Tomorrow :)]] Bree tells us that the ceremony will take place on October 12, 2006 which is also [[Aleister Crowley]]'s birthday.

In [[Daniel, Be Careful...]] [[Bree]] talks about the importance of [http://lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php/The_Secret the secret] nature of her religion. [[Aleister Crowley]] also talks about secrecy, but the very word "occult" comes from the latin "occultus" meaning "things secret or hidden". It is often used in the medical field, such as "occult bleeding", which would mean bleeding that is not obvious to the naked eye.

In [[I'm Hiding Out]], [[Daniel]] described [[Bree]]'s religion as a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult cult].

In [[Learning Egyptian]], [[Gemmers19]] claims that Bree's religion is not a [http://www.lonelygirl15.com/lgpedia/index.php/Thelema Thelemic religion] at all but a [[Secret Society]] called [[The Order]].

[[Category:Theories and speculation]]

The Order

2006-11-10T14:54:14Z

72.200.30.170: It could not be the OTO. For one, Gemma has straight up said it is not Thelema. The OTO is the largest thelemic order.

In [[Learning Egyptian]], [[Gemmers19]] claims that [[Bree's religion" is not a religion at all but a [[Secret Society]].

According to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28group%29 Wikipedia]: "The Order (also called the Silent Brotherhood and Aryan Resistance Movement) was a neo-Nazi organization active in the United States between 1983 and 1984. The Order described themselves as a “white nationalist revolutionary group”‘." It is not yet clear if this is same group as that referred to in the LG15 storyline.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28Deus_Ex%29 Wikipedia] also talks about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28Deus_Ex%29 Order (Deus Ex)] which is "a fictional transdenominational religious group set in the computer and video game Deus Ex: Invisible War."

Another possible meaning would be [[Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn]] which Aleister Crowley once belonged to. However, "the Order" is most likely just a shorthand way of saying "The Order of Denderah" as is a common practice amongst order members, regardless of the order they belong to.

===External Links===
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28group%29 The Order] (Wikipedia article]
*[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_%28Deus_Ex%29 Order (Deus Ex)] (Wikipedia article]