Lonelygirl15

Now i'm not sure if this theory or the ideas behind it have been mentioned before but has anyone thought that instead of just factions within the order and Tachyon and OpAphid, we might actually be dealing with separate sects representing two different spheres.

Consider the fact that all the major players we know of within the Order have been female, ranging from Lucy to Gemma right through to OpAphid and Tachyon (not sure about the Deacons but it was never suggested that they were all male/female).

True, some of the "watchers" have been ostensibly male but their true allegiance is iffy, seeing as:

1. Gemma pointed them out

AND

2. They never made any real attempt to bring Bree/Daniel/Jonas in

Now i'm just spitballing here but what if the Order, as a matriarchy or primarily Feminine organisation (although Crowley seems to be very central too) is actually in contention with ANOTHER sect, say, oh i don't know, Christianity?

We all know that their have been various references to ancient texts/sources/organisations and that many of these have been to the illuminati. Now think, who have traditionally been the greatest enemies of the Illuminati? That's right, amongst their enemies none stands out greater than Christianity.

I don't know why i'm suddenly so positive of this but for some reason i can't shake the idea that the picture of the Cross in the "Looking For Daniel" vid was representative of Jonas' true allegiance, to the Church of Christ.

It even sorta makes sense if you think of Daniel's return it almost had prodigal son-like references and Jonas as representative of the Father figure and Christianity completes the picture and sets up the two rival factions.

I could be very wrong about all of this and have misconstrued alot of things but it seems to make sense. It even makes sense as to why Jonas is driving that far into the mountains to see a guy who ostensibly was a local to his area, he's not taking her to see a guy who left with Daniel, he's taking her to a mountain refuge to keep her safe from OP. They may even have their own views as to the importance of Bree and Daniel.

Hit me back with your thoughts but i think it may explain why Jonas has acted the way he has, not because he's necessarily bad or good but because he's Christian and that's what his church espouses.

Peace

so you're saying that jonas is for the church-- making him against the order?
i liiiike
honestly, i don't care what his motives are as long as he's helping

I completely agree with you.

Hmm. Love the subterfuge...a lot of biblical references have been made ( oh c'mon Daniel, Jonas, The Darbyites, The play about the Mayflower?) It does seem to have some sort of meaning doesn't it?

I am not sure I get why it has anything to do with the Order being female? Maybe this is exposing my biblically challenged side? I dunno. However, the non-Christian religions that are referenced do have a lot of feminine aspects. Hathor comes to mind, and Denderah, and even Babalon from the earlier vids. The Christian references have been primarily male.

But how do you reconcile Bree's Dad in this picture? Also the cross in Looking for Daniel was a Celtic Cross, not sure if that matters.

You have given me a lot to think about here....I love that!

edit: typos

There are definitely some odds and ends to figure out and the feminine/masculine duality part has some serious problems with it but for the most part i think the Christianity versus Illuminati concept holds some water in light of the references that have been put in throughout the series.

However, consider the fact that as far as we know, the areas most highly noted in the series surrounding the order have been centralised around the feminine, OpAphid and the ceremony, as far as we know only women/girls are the centerpieces in these highly sacred parts of the Order. I do not believe that men are completely irrelevant-Bree's dad obviously had a significant role-however i do believe that the power within this organisation, especially in regards to matters of security, warfare and the ceremonial rites are largely matriarchal/matrilineal (sp?) with men serving mostly in the lower echelons.

It may even explain why Bree's Dad was killed, not only did he know too much but as a man he knew things that were sacred female knowledge and forbidden to men, also consider that Bree's Mum has not taken a pro-active role for Bree and has even been referred to as a "pillar within the community" by Gemma.

Just some more random thoughts, carry on.

Peace

Macabea13 wrote:I am not sure I get why it has anything to do with the Order being female? Maybe this is exposing my biblically challenged side? I dunno. However, the non-Christian religions that are referenced do have a lot of feminine aspects. Hathor comes to mind, and Denderah, and even Babalon from the earlier vids. The Christian references have been primarily male.

Many, if not all, Pagan religions hold the female in higher regard to the male. They still acknowledge and respect the male aspect, (because to bring new life, you need both the male and female), but the female, (or the Goddess), is the physical bringer of all life.

I studied Wicca, Paganism, and, more recently and specifically, Celtic Paganism for several years now. Even with the Pagan-esque aspects to this "religion," (for I think that it's really less of a religion at this point, and more of an organization), I think that there are a bunch of influences in play here, (most notably the Illuminati).

autumneternal wrote:

Macabea13 wrote:I am not sure I get why it has anything to do with the Order being female? Maybe this is exposing my biblically challenged side? I dunno. However, the non-Christian religions that are referenced do have a lot of feminine aspects. Hathor comes to mind, and Denderah, and even Babalon from the earlier vids. The Christian references have been primarily male.

Many, if not all, Pagan religions hold the female in higher regard to the male. They still acknowledge and respect the male aspect, (because to bring new life, you need both the male and female), but the female, (or the Goddess), is the physical bringer of all life.

I studied Wicca, Paganism, and, more recently and specifically, Celtic Paganism for several years now. Even with the Pagan-esque aspects to this "religion," (for I think that it's really less of a religion at this point, and more of an organization), I think that there are a bunch of influences in play here, (most notably the Illuminati).

Though (as another pagan :O) I totally agree with 99% of what you are saying, I do have to clarify that I don't think it's the case that most (if all) pagan varieties of paganism hold the female in higher regard. There are many, of course, who only worship the female aspect, but just as many, if not more hold the male and female to be completely equal. It's the old yin/yang, light/dark sort of thing. You can't have one without the other, and if they are not equal, it would throw everything off balance.
One of the reasons that so many people pay so much attention to the Goddess when they convert to Wicca or another pagan variety is that they have usually raised in a Christian household that has focused on the male aspect of deity, and they want to explore the female. So many pagans that I know started off focusing on the Goddess, but once they have really settled into their religious beliefs, into the actual spirituality of it, not just the ritualistic aspects, they find it more comfortable to treat the male/female aspects as equally important. Of, course, that's just been my experience and opinion. Sorry to be so off topic!

Back to topic -- I would be a little disappointed if this came down to a fight between an off-center religion and Christianity. To me that would be too much of a religious battle type thing. The Order is paganistic = evil, Jonas is Christian = good. It would sort of be a slap in the face, IMHO, to those of us that do not practice a more conventional religion.

I sort of think that's part of why the Creators veared the Order over to more of an organization than a religious sect -- seeing how strongly people were reacting to the religious overtones and how upset people were when they thought that it might be focusing (incorrectly) on their own religion. I wouldn't be surprised if the Creators avoided any more serious talk about any religion in the series.

But I could be completely wrong, lol, which is the fun of speculating on different theories!

I should probably clarify, i believe that the Christianity vs Paganism thing is probably a bit over the top but was just mentioning the emergent duality and gender politics in the series whilst noting that the traditional enemies of the Illuminati have usually been the catholic church, a largely patriarchal society.

I don't necessarily think that if it were to be a stand off between the two that one has to be good and one to be evil, rather that it would be as two corrupt and shady organisations facing off against each other to fulfill their own personal ambitions through Bree and Jonas.

Peace

Sanjay wrote:I should probably clarify, i believe that the Christianity vs Paganism thing is probably a bit over the top but was just mentioning the emergent duality and gender politics in the series whilst noting that the traditional enemies of the Illuminati have usually been the catholic church, a largely patriarchal society.

I don't necessarily think that if it were to be a stand off between the two that one has to be good and one to be evil, rather that it would be as two corrupt and shady organisations facing off against each other to fulfill their own personal ambitions through Bree and Jonas.

Peace

Hmmm, okay, if they were both shady, I could work with that!

Sanjay wrote:I should probably clarify, i believe that the Christianity vs Paganism thing is probably a bit over the top but was just mentioning the emergent duality and gender politics in the series whilst noting that the traditional enemies of the Illuminati have usually been the catholic church, a largely patriarchal society.

I don't necessarily think that if it were to be a stand off between the two that one has to be good and one to be evil, rather that it would be as two corrupt and shady organisations facing off against each other to fulfill their own personal ambitions through Bree and Jonas.

Peace

I think it is interesting, and also think that they don't have to be good or evil to be diametrically opposed. I also agree that the creators will steer away from religion at this point, but don't see that this theory requires the "battle" to be religious, but rather more ideological.

I am also thinking about how Bree and Jonas are both characters whose lineage/parents are kind of vaguely defined, making them both good symbolic martyrs for their respective causes. Bree was cultivated and protected (the prodigal daughter) while Jonas was orphaned and left to society for his upbringing ( a sort of prodigal son.) This fits into religous symbolism nicely and also highlights the underlying battle between the non-convential and the convential.

I know I was thinking more, and got kind of muddled here....sorry.

so I like this theory, even if I don't completely agree with it.
I'm still not sold on the illumanati.
But the rest of what you and everyone else has said sounds good.
This is the best explanation of Jonas' behavior I have heard...and as president of his fan club, I am happy to accept it as the truth.

if it the story is how you're theorixing it to be, with the religion and organizations, then it is remarkebly similar to Dan Browns Angels and Demons and somewhat of the Da Vinci code, as far as the religion and organization conepts go. i jus thtought that was interesting

Well having read that book, it did spark my imagination and it explains quite a few things so yeah, i could see some of that coming through in it.

Peace