Lonelygirl15

ITS SO STUPID when some of you people say: "Why can't daniel respect Bree's religion?" and "why are people judging her religion as dangerous for her when they know nothing about it?"

.....! Haven't you seen the vids where this little girl is crying and afraid of even asking her parents to go to a party?

Is it your opinion that if it doesn't kill her then her parents are free to treat her as they please and suppress her freedom?

Americans talk about their freedom all the time.... where's bree's freedom? OK she says she likes her church and of course she does. That doesn't mean that they treat her nice!

Her parent's clearly have no real emotional contact with her and don't give a shit about her needs. That's not right.

A lot of young muslim girls are forced to walk around in huge tents with only two holes for the eyes and are circumsied at a young age(they sow their pussies shut). Most of them claim they love their god and religion and sure most of them probably do. But at the same time they are treated like animals in the name of religion.

Ok so bree's religion is not treating her like that... but she doesn't feel that she's free to make her own choices. Sure this story might seem really far out to us because bree is an ordinary white girl. But bree's story, with all the sneaking out windows and being afraid to do certain "normal" things is the cold reality for millions of young muslim girls around the world... especially if they live in a western society.

why don't some of you people wake up and smell the coffee?
It's a thin line but it's people like daniel who sticks out and cares for their friends and their freedom who makes a difference. They try to make sure their friends are ok when it seems like their lives mighjt be controlled in some way or another by other people. That's sticking up for freedom and what's wrong with that? It doesnät matter if it's bad friends like a Bloods gang or if it's bad parents who got twisted rules.

Bree is a realy delicate case... but in many real life situations girls with stupid parents (religious or not) are "saved" by boys like daniel. It's not because they can't think for themselves... they are just raised to believe that their parents know best. And legally her parents still rule her life. But if Daniel can invoke a feeling of security and trust with bree, maybe she will realise that it's not up to her parents to make all those choices. She might discover that she still likes her god and religion... but that she also wants to live in the real world and do real things. Then in three years time she'll be able to tell them that she loves them but that she wants to lead her own life.
In my country (sweden) the social workers would not tolerate the situation if they found out about it. They would send in someone to make sure bree could communicate with her parents and still have her freedom.

Sure every girl should have the right to choose her religion and to have her privacy... without any strange boys stalking her.
But more importantly our society (including daniel and social workers) have the duty to show a girl like bree that there are alternatives as well... and that their parent's don't get to decide what the choice is going to be.

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Quoting this from Swellit(noob here not sure how to do it yet)
A lot of young muslim girls are forced to walk around in huge tents with only two holes for the eyes and are circumsied at a young age(they sow their pussies shut). Most of them claim they love their god and religion and sure most of them probably do. But at the same time they are treated like animals in the name of religion.


O.k. First of all I am new here!!! Ssecond of all I am still figuring this out. So please bear with me.

When a young girl is circumcised, they do not sew up her vagina. They simply remove her clitorus. They do not want their women to experience sexual pleasure. Also, they believe in many cultures that it is a way to keep woman from cheating on their spouse.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_circ.htm

this link explains exactly what it is. I am not trying to be rude or anything, just wanted to clarify what it is.
[/quote]

angie78gg wrote:A lot of young muslim girls are forced to walk around in huge tents with only two holes for the eyes and are circumsied at a young age(they sow their pussies shut).

I thought female circumcision was the removal of the clitoris

Hello, my point is that I am new here and not sure exactly what I am doing!!! I havent figured out the whole "quote" thing. I was quoting what Swellit wrote.............Thats why I included a link that tells what it is,...Yes stupid noob here , this is my first forum experience. So if I make a booboo, sorry. That and if you had took a couple seconds more to read my post you may have figured it out!!!

I replied to this post on the main lonelygirl15 page. I don't know why the main poster here is thinking that BREE is in some horrendous situation. So her parents don't let her go to parties, thats not abnormal. A lot of teenagers are told they cannot go to parties by their parents. BOO-HOO, big deal, it's not something that will ruin her life. So she snuck out, a lot of teenagers do that. Sneaking out is part of the whole teenage experience...something that most teenagers do.

I don't know much about Sweden but if teenagers are allowed to do whatever the hell they want over there (with the protection of social workers) I wouldn't have kids. And if I did, I would hand them over to the state to raise since they obviously know how to raise kids better then the people who actually had them. I don't think people should beat their kids but seriously, if my kids grow up to be horrible teenagers who do things that I don't feel is right (ie: drugs, drinking, sex - yes, I am old fashioned but I don't want my kids coming home pregnant or with STD's that might ruin their reproductive future or even kill them. I also feel that teenagers are too emotionally immature to handle sexual relationships but thats just me.) I would punish them by taking away certain luxuries I could also ground them or something like that...whatever, teenagers do what they want but I don't have to make it easy for them to do it.

I don't think there is any evidence of child abuse here. She has strict parents but a lot of people do. I think compairing the situation to that of girls in the middle east is quite extreame.

I feel that she should be allowed a few more freedoms. I feel it is strange that she broke her "purity bond" by simply kissing Daniel (that is pretty extreame to me ). I don't know what her religion is all about...I have read some about what people feel is her religion but if she is not allowed to kiss, that really sucks.

First of all let me clarify on female circ.
There are two levels. Cutting the clitoris and sowing the whole thing shut. Far from all muslim girls make it to level two... thankfully. So that was over simplifying from me. Still having your clitoris removed is not nice either (or is it?) so i don't know why that would be something worth to discuss...

Now for to you penny... thanks for taking the time to answer my post. I can see how I was a little bit too intense when i wrote it. But i'll try to tell you a little better this time why i think bree's parents are "abusing" her.

Penny wrote:A lot of teenagers are told they cannot go to parties by their parents. BOO-HOO, big deal, it's not something that will ruin her life. So she snuck out, a lot of teenagers do that.

BO-HOO it IS ruining Bree's life IMO.

You're absolutely right some teenagers shouldn't go to the parties they wanna go to. And that's up to the parents of course. But if you're a parent and you tell your kids they can't go to ANY parties because it interfers with the family's choice of religion... That's NOT cool.
It's not even cool by the standard of human rights. Though you're right: neither swedish or US authorities can interfer as long as it's not obvious that the child is a prisoner.

And that's why parents like Bree's parents can keep doing what they do... they keep it neat and clean to the outside world and even trick their kid into that it's normal to shy away from the rest of the world for a "higher" or "religious" purpose. But even if Bree is not a prisoner physically (she's not locked in and she can sneak out) she is homeschooled - and lonely. It's not right to isolate a child like that... no righteous god or religion asks their followers to do this. It's made up rules by parents or leaders to control their children.

You might say it is to protect the children. Controlling is not protecting.

Communicating and engaging in their lives... giving them self esteem and confidence. That is the only way IMO.

Which brings me to my next point:

Penny wrote: Sneaking out is part of the whole teenage experience...something that most teenagers do.

In one way I strongly disagree with this. OK it IS part of the teenage experience just like being bullied by friends at school is a part of the teenage experience.
It shouldn't HAVE to be though.
Parents need to communicate with their children and care enough to get a clue what parties they go to... and kind of what they're up to at those parties.
Then they know WHEN to say no... and more importantly: when to say YES.
Bree 's parents say NO every time. Of course she's gonna sneak out.

OK so my parents were terrific and i still snuck out one or two times... so yes it's still part of the experience... i'll give you that. But a precious and wonderful, socially talented girl like Bree who has NEVER been to a single party? Not in a real school? Only has ONE friend?
That's a tragedy! Maybe not technical child abuse... but good for her? no!

If bree could go to a party once in a while she wouldn't sneak out. It's not whether she sneaks out or doesnt sneak out thats the problem. It's the fact that she feels she HAS to because her parents refuse to take her seriously or even listen to her. That's a HUGE problem.

It's when parents take the easy way out and make up strict rules instead of listening to their children they take the real big risk that their children will make bad choices IMO.
And even worse: when the kids sneak out and the parents just shrug and say "it's part of the teenage experience, I'll just have to ground her for a few weeks" instead of asking themselves if they could do a better job as a parent... Then it's really bad!
Then the trust is broken and then the child doesn'tknow what to think. Or what to do. The result more than often: extremely unhappy and lost "lonelygirl17" or revolting and attentionseeking "sluttygirl17".
I'd like my daughter to feel good enough to be just "coolgirl17" instead.

Penny wrote: I don't know much about Sweden but if teenagers are allowed to do whatever the hell they want over there (with the protection of social workers) I wouldn't have kids. And if I did, I would hand them over to the state to raise since they obviously know how to raise kids better then the people who actually had them.

Of course you're right... it has to be a lot of obvious errors for the state to act. Though i think many girls in bree's situation would be better off having contact with a cool social worker or school counselor than having a young boy stalking her feeling that he has the responsibility to save her.

Daniel and bree should be allowed to be just young and free... falling in love like teenagers do, no shame or guilt... and if they (GOD FORBID!) would fail to fight their sexual urges then their parents should have made sure from the very beginning their kids are aware of the risks and that they know how to use condoms. Many parents miss this and lose contact eventually... feeling forced to make up more and more rules as their teens spin out of control.

Bree's parents put these two young people in a most awkward situation where bree isn't allowed to have any adult responsibility and daniel feels forced to look out for her. It's horrible!

I should know because I have been that young boy. It was sick! I felt really alone and lost but still i just knew my girlfriend was miserable in her situation. It was unbarable. And there wasn't even any religion or cult involved... she just had overprotective and wierd parents who treated her like an 8 year old instead of 16. It was really subtle to the outside world - like in bree's case - and she seemed happy just like bree does. But I won her trust and out of the blye it turned out she didn't feel that great on the inside. (and if bree's blog was real i think she'd be crying a lot more too).
Luckily enough i managed to help my beloved to summon enough courage to go to her school counsellor. It "saved" her - and me - from the situation (social workers DID get involved and helped her to find a foster family). But in the end it became too much of a big thing for us to handle anyway... the fact that i had been forced to be her "parent" or "protector" took out all the energy of our relationship. I had been exposed to dark anf fragile sides of her soul that she just wanted to forget and leave behind.... so she also had to forget about me.

It was really sad to say the least... and many times i've wondered what could have been if we'd been allowed to just be teenagers in love and not have to fight to cut ourselves loose from the ridiculous web of rules that her parents had constructed.

Penny wrote: I don't think people should beat their kids.

agree on that one

Penny wrote: but seriously, if my kids grow up to be horrible teenagers who do things that I don't feel is right (ie: drugs, drinking, sex - yes, I am old fashioned but I don't want my kids coming home pregnant or with STD's that might ruin their reproductive future or even kill them,
I would punish them by taking away certain luxuries I could also ground them or something like that...

and rightfully so... who wouldnt? (but chances are that your teenagers would be out of control because you didn't communicate with them from the beginning)

My point, though, IS:
How does your quote above apply to Bree (whatsoever?) I don't see her doing ANYTHING that's even remotely close to drinking or having sex. in fact she's so socially and physically alienated that she feels awkward about even kissing a boy. If you, as a parent think "well that's good, then she wont get a STD" then you obviously don't think of your child as anything more like a dog or a cat. (I'm not saying YOU think of your kids that way... your post later on suggest you really want them to feel the joy of kissing someone. but if brees parents were real and thought it should be that way then it would be pretty fucked up.)

Penny wrote: whatever, teenagers do what they want but I don't have to make it easy for them to do it.

Hey penny I don't mean to be rude... you probably have kids or are getting kids in the future and I'm sure it works out really good!
SO i hope you're not just pissed off by my post.

But also I DO hope that it can inspire you to think that the statement "whatever, teenagers do what they want but I don't have to make it easy for them to do it" is not necessarily entirely accurate.

What if more parents would rephrase that to:
"When my children become a teenagers they're gonna begin to do what THEY want and instead of what I want. Therefore I see it as my biggest challenge/mission to be there for them and understand them wether it means having fun with them (or even partying with them) or reprimanding them.... or a little bit of both."

I know you probably also agree with me on that but I'd wish for more parents to have it as their main motto (rather than "teenaers do what they do anyway"

Penny wrote: I also feel that teenagers are too emotionally immature to handle sexual relationships but thats just me.)

It's probably true for most teenagers. But like I said if they should find themselves in the situation they should be strong enough to say NO!
And also be strong enough to say YES! if that'¨s what they really, really want. Only you as a parent can give them that self esteem. And they don't get it by feeling ashamed by the fact that they have a sexuality. (once again i don't accuse you of this, because i don't know you or if you even have children).
I had the chance to have sex many times before i chose to say yes. I think I would have said yes earlier and for the wrong reasons if my parents hadn't made me feel good about it and that the decision was my private decision and that they trusted me.

Penny wrote: I don't think there is any evidence of child abuse here. She has strict parents but a lot of people do.

Some strict parents are really good parents. But I don't think that any parents who isolate their daughter in that way are good parents. What is the definition of abuse?

Penny wrote: I think compairing the situation to that of girls in the middle east is quite extreame.

Yeah that was too extreme... I made you guys completely miss my point. Which was that in brees situation there are the same mechanisms (trying to control your children) in motion and that the extremely fucked up circumstanses surrounding some muslim cultures is where it ends up if you just keep adding rules mindlessly without thinking of your children as real persons with real feelings.

Penny wrote: I feel that she should be allowed a few more freedoms. I feel it is strange that she broke her "purity bond" by simply kissing Daniel (that is pretty extreame to me ). I don't know what her religion is all about...I have read some about what people feel is her religion but if she is not allowed to kiss, that really sucks.

I totally agree... and i think we have a more similar view on things than i first thought. But perhaps it's because you're in the middle of or about to be raising kids... AND the fact that i've seen with my own eyes how decieved and betrayed a young girl in brees situation can feel deep inside without even admitting it to herself.
My whole point is though that there's a difference between strict and insanely disallowing. And the rest of the society (you n me penny!) have to be very clear that it's not cool for our neighbours to treat their children that way. Even if it's their children. There's way too much bullshit going on in "happy" american homes in the name of "good (sometimes add "christian") family values".

As closing words to this insanely long post (an essay in the making ? ) I'd like to comment on the logic of comparing Bree to the real world.
It's not entirely simple and I think that's the reason why we instinctively disagree on this (even though we probably pretty much share the same moral values).

For me it was pretty clear quite early that lonelygirl15 is fiction... bree is a little too happy and outgoing compared to how isolated she really is.
That's what decieves most people to think that daniel is totally crossing her line of privacy.
If LG was a real blog it woluld be much more evident that it's her PARENTS who keep crossing that line of privacy and that daniel is just a lost kid who's concerned about her. And if it was in real life he would probably already have some adult (like his parents or someone from school) with him on the case... helping him check up on bree and her family in a responsible and relaxed way instead of chasing her like a paparazzi.

So in that sense LG is quite unrealistic... but that's also good because it makes us discuss these things... moral values. For me it certainly brings up a lot of old memories and makes me wanna express how wrong I think it would be for real parents to put bree in such a situation... and even if i don't think that was the creators' original purpose to be teaching us anything I think that this is what they've found along the waythat they wanna tell us.

angie78gg wrote:Quoting this from Swellit(noob here not sure how to do it yet)
A lot of young muslim girls are forced to walk around in huge tents with only two holes for the eyes and are circumsied at a young age(they sow their pussies shut). Most of them claim they love their god and religion and sure most of them probably do. But at the same time they are treated like animals in the name of religion.



When a young girl is circumcised, they do not sew up her vagina. They simply remove her clitorus. They do not want their women to experience sexual pleasure. Also, they believe in many cultures that it is a way to keep woman from cheating on their spouse.

Actually alot of female circumcision is not only the clitorus but also the labia..often with rusted/dirty blades and no anesthetic, and then they are sewn up, leaving a small hole to urinate through..which is torn open by thier husband on thier wedding night...There are not two stages but many different types...i can't be bothered writing it all but heres a better link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision
And swellit, it might be a good idea to research a little before making such a general statment...Female circumcision is not a a muslim religious practice, infact there are muslim countries where this practice is unknown. Female genital mutilation has been practiced by Animists, Christians, and Muslims and is prdominantly in africa.

Omg, I would tell them to kill me before they sewed me up and ripped me open. No thank you, I will pass. I had never heard of that before, but thanks for letting me know. I watched a documentary on young girls in Africa, but it didnt say anything about that. So, I have learned something new today lol

Okay, so I don't know if you have seen every LG15 vlog, if you haven't then you should go back and watch them. I think Bree made it quite clear that she liked being homeschooled. She wanted it since she was having a difficult time in public school. Kids were being quite mean to her and spreading roomers about her that were pretty cruel. So she is homeschooled but that is her choice.

As far as only having one friend, I think it's pretty safe to say that she didn't make many friends in Public school...all the kids made fun of her. Daniel and a girl named Cassie were friends with her but Cassie was frightened off by Bree's religion. Daniel stuck around as we all know but we also know that he isn't allowed in their house anymore. I feel that it is wrong for her parents to keep her from him but I am sure they have their reasons (I didn't say that their reasons are legitimate).

Her parents might be racist (Aleister Crowley was known for his antisemitism) Daniel hasn't mentioned his religion but many here in the forum have said that they think Daniel is jewish. It might bother them that Bree is spending a lot of time with a jewish boy (I am not defending her parents, especially if this is the case, I am just going through possible reasons). They might not like Daniel because he was openly hostile to Bree's dad about filming Bree's play and going to her summer camp. I know that my parents didn't like being disrespected by my friends...

I agree with you, there is a difference between controlling and simply protecting your teenager...but where is the line between the two drawn? I say its all relative...what might be controlling to someone in Sweden might not be to someone in the United States...or whatever, it's different for everyone.

YOU SAID: Bree's parents put these two young people in a most awkward situation where bree isn't allowed to have any adult responsibility and daniel feels forced to look out for her. It's horrible!

Since when did passing through puberty make someone an instant adult? All the teenagers I have known in my life (except for a select handful) didn't deserve the right to be given "adult responsibilty" as you put it. So one day you're a child and the next an adult? Teenagers are teenagers, not adults...They should be given more freedoms then a child but not be given the freedoms of an adult.

As far as Bree's religion goes, it is quite extreame...but seriously, BREE was given an ultimatum by Daniel to give up her religion for him...if she really had a problem with her religion she would have totally given it up. She likes her religion. I don't agree with that since her religion gives me the creeps (anything to do with Aleister Crowley does)...But I can't make decisions for a fictional character online. Anyway, she seems determined to be in the ceremony. If in fact Bree is old enough to make adult decisions (as you feel she should be able to do) then she obviously knows what she is doing (I am being sarcastic here).

I am not defending everything that is going on in Bree's home I am just saying that in the United States religion is protected in the constitution. There are crazy people who will not allow their sick children to be treated by doctors because their religion won't allow it...in some of these cases the law does get involved but not in every case. I live in a place where there are a lot of muslim people. My heart breaks everytime I see a women with their heads covered with those scarves. There are some muslims that are more extreame here and the women aren't allowed to make decisions for themselves...their husbands do...Its so sad that its going on in the United States where women have rights...but their religion does not allow it. I belong to a religion where there are some strict rules. I have been ridiculed because I choose to live by these strict rules. I don't have to live this way but I CHOOSE TO. My religion is important to me and I want to do what I feel is right. I am grateful that I live in a country that allows me to practice my religion as I choose. At the same time the constitution also proctects some crazy religions (whats crazy sounding to me might not be for the next person...its all relative) like Bree's...I don't like the whole Aleister Crowley thing. But, thats the great (and not so great) thing about America...we do have freedom to worship as we choose (within reason of course)...The pilgrams came here in search of religious freedom and we have it.

So there you go...Bree is too sheltered but as long as there isn't evidence of any real emotional or physical abuse...I doubt the law would get involved. A social worker wouldn't rush over if someone reported that her parents didn't allow her to go to parties or kiss boys.

As far as when my parenting skills come into question, FIRST OFF, you know less about me then you do about the Bree, so don't go attacking me. So I don't think its right to let teenagers do whatever the hell they want...It doesn't mean I am the devil. I am realistic and know that teenagers will end up trying to do things I am opposed to. I don't see whats wrong with making that difficult for them to do. If they know the rules and I know that they are breaking them then I am going to stop them. So I don't want my kids doing things that are distructive to their physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual wellbeing.

As far as partying with my kids goes...whatever. The parents that partied with their teenagers and their friends were a complete joke when I was in highschool. Their kids didn't even respect them. They were only nice to their parents to get what they wanted from them. Otherwise they spent their time talking about what losers their parents were. And when it came time for those parents to lay down the law they didn't know how to do it. And if they did, their kids never took them seriously and did what they wanted to do anyway.

dear penny... what a defensive post.
Once again I agree with most of what u say... but it doesn't seem like you notice ...?

In short: I DO respect that yu have chosen your religion and I DO respevt traditional values. Sweden is very much like USA in almost every way... including the right to practice you religion. And that's what's important!

Only thing I still don't agree with is the initial attitude of "teenagers are teenagers" . That's what makes them feel alienated from their parents.

Penny wrote:Okay, so I don't know if you have seen every LG15 vlog, if you haven't then you should go back and watch them. I think Bree made it quite clear that she liked being homeschooled. She wanted it since she was having a difficult time in public school. Kids were being quite mean to her and spreading roomers about her that were pretty cruel. So she is homeschooled but that is her choice.

SO when a 15 yo says "I wanna be homeschooled because the kids pick on me and my religion" that means you should ho0meschool them????

JEEESUS! You just can't mean that. First of all that doesnt sound like a quote from a totally healthy/happy girl. And second: by agreeing to Bree being homeschooled her parents validate the following:

If people don't accept you for the wonderful persin that you are then the sollution is to flee from the situation. What a devastating misktake of a decision for bree's parents to take with her... they should have encouraged to be who she was instead! That choice becomes a lead example that bree is gonna follow alll of her life.

Once again I think we (or you) are fooled by the fact that bree (being fictional and all) can talk about her tragic retreat from public school like it was no big deal. IRL a girl in her situation would put more depth into it (because she's gotta be sad ... hasnt she?)

Penny wrote: As far as only having one friend, I think it's pretty safe to say that she didn't make many friends in Public school...all the kids made fun of her.

once again this is the most tragic thing: bree bacame the wierd kid from the beginning... and still thinks she is. And her parents let her flle into homeschooling. Bree isn't that wierd. She's not wierd at all. She's LOVELY. Only wierd thing about her is the fact that she's not been trained to live in the real world. If that's because of her parents letting her play tto much nintendo then f**k that, if it's because they won't let her break her purity bonds or whatever comes with her "religion" then guess what? Yes you guessed it: f**k the religion! It's not that any religion should not be practised by teenagers... religion is wonderful! But if it has rules that hindres them from interacting with other kids... then it's not good is it?

Often it's not the idea of the religion itself... it's often just a lot of rules that comes with it that is definitely not good for kids: so let me rephrase that:
screw those rules. often they got nothing to do with the religion itself.

Penny wrote: Daniel and a girl named Cassie were friends with her but Cassie was frightened off by Bree's religion. Daniel stuck around as we all know but we also know that he isn't allowed in their house anymore. I feel that it is wrong for her parents to keep her from him but I am sure they have their reasons (I didn't say that their reasons are legitimate).
Her parents might be racist (Aleister Crowley was known for his antisemitism) Daniel hasn't mentioned his religion but many here in the forum have said that they think Daniel is jewish. It might bother them that Bree is spending a lot of time with a jewish boy (I am not defending her parents, especially if this is the case, I am just going through possible reasons).

i agree - jew hate = not cool

Penny wrote: They might not like Daniel because he was openly hostile to Bree's dad about filming Bree's play and going to her summer camp. I know that my parents didn't like being disrespected by my friends...

this is what is kind of the core of my agrument with you penny:
A lot of kids dis their friends parents and that is - of course - not cool at all.
1. But I think Daniel does it because he feels something is wrong with the situation... he just doesn't know how to express it and instead he's playing the smirking teenage rebellion - a bad move indeed.

2. THOUGH the reason why he's uncomfortable with the whole thing is because bree's parets setup is all crazy.

3. Daniel is a teenager/child reacting on the craziness of the superior adults in bree's life

4. Brees parents ARE the superior adults and should reall take some god damn responsibility from the beginnig... NOT homeschooling bree for example.

Penny wrote: I agree with you, there is a difference between controlling and simply protecting your teenager...but where is the line between the two drawn? I say its all relative...what might be controlling to someone in Sweden might not be to someone in the United States...or whatever, it's different for everyone.

yeah i agree and it's why this discussion is relevant and exciting.

Penny wrote: YOU SAID: Bree's parents put these two young people in a most awkward situation where bree isn't allowed to have any adult responsibility and daniel feels forced to look out for her. It's horrible!

It IS horrible.

Penny wrote: Since when did passing through puberty make someone an instant adult?

Did i EVER say it does?

Penny wrote: All the teenagers I have known in my life (except for a select handful) didn't deserve the right to be given "adult responsibilty" as you put it. So one day you're a child and the next an adult?

penny... this is where you really surprise me. WHO said that tenagers are adults? Certainly not me!

My whole point about with saying...

"Bree's parents put these two young people in a most awkward situation where bree isn't allowed to have any adult responsibility and daniel feels forced to look out for her"

... is that teenagers are NOT adults and that they shouldn't HAVE to be either! So let me rephrase that to:

"Bree's parents put these two young people in a most awkward situation where bree isn't allowed to have any responsibility whatsoever (not even normal teenager responsibility) and daniel feels forced to look out for her thus taking way too much adult responsibility because bree's parents obviously fail at it! "

I don't think i can make it much clearer than that.

Penny wrote: Teenagers are teenagers, not adults...They should be given more freedoms then a child but not be given the freedoms of an adult.

Totally agree... my point is that bree is given the resposibility of a 10 yar old or perhaps 12 year old girl at max. It's humiliating for her and she doesn't even know it because she was raised to think it's OK.

Penny wrote: As far as Bree's religion goes, it is quite extreame...but seriously, BREE was given an ultimatum by Daniel to give up her religion for him...if she really had a problem with her religion she would have totally given it up.

Yes it was wrong of daniel to give her that ultimatum. He's obviously not capable pf handling the situation. And he shouldn't have to. He's a kid.

As is bree. That's why his ultimatum was useless. She likes her religion and shouldn't have to choose... but since she's not really allowed to see daniel because of her religion then once again her PARENTS chose that difficult situation for her.
They are Not Cool Parents of the Year for leaving their kid to choose between love/friend and religion. (a very grown up issue that kids shouldnt have to deal with IMO)

Penny wrote: She likes her religion. I don't agree with that since her religion gives me the creeps (anything to do with Aleister Crowley does)...

Wether bree likes her religion or not doesnt matter... but it's damn great she likes it because it does seem like she's got no choice whether she wants to follow all of the stupid rules that come with it or not.

My point being crystal clear: just because bree feels something for her religion doesnt mean here parents can go ahead and flood her with ridiculous rules. That, in fact, is kind of mocking brees personal bond with the religion which is awful.

Penny wrote: But I can't make decisions for a fictional character online.

agreed

Penny wrote: Anyway, she seems determined to be in the ceremony. If in fact Bree is old enough to make adult decisions (as you feel she should be able to do) then she obviously knows what she is doing (I am being sarcastic here).

That little nice "sarcasm" of yours works against you on several levels:

1. You claim she's not old enough to make decisions some things... nut with this ceremony it's all of asudden very important. Lost me on that one...

2. You have for some reason begun to think that I have this crazy idea that children gain full adult responsibility as soon as they become teenagers.
What I DO believe is that they have to be introduced to making own decisions by their parents.

3. So... brees parents introduce her to this fun ceremony. bree gets excited. Makes her first OWN mature choice that she wants to do it. everyone's happy. until bree kisses a boy and breaks her purity bond... then everything's fucked up. WHY!!?? that's putting way to much pressure on a girl. Even abuse IMO.
Ok bree likes her religion but at the same time she's kinda forced to because thats the only life her parents offer her.

Penny wrote:
So there you go...Bree is too sheltered but as long as there isn't evidence of any real emotional or physical abuse...I doubt the law would get involved. A social worker wouldn't rush over if someone reported that her parents didn't allow her to go to parties or kiss boys.

No... but a perfectly normal 15 yo choosing to get homeschooled for the reason of "making no friends in public school" oughta ring their bell (in the perfect worl where the'yre not flooded w heavier shit)

Bree's just not free IMO.

Penny wrote: As far as when my parenting skills come into question, FIRST OFF, you know less about me then you do about the Bree, so don't go attacking me.

I spent my whole last post trying to make sure youdidn't react like this. maybe you should give it a 2nd read?

Penny wrote: So I don't think its right to let teenagers do whatever the hell they want...It doesn't mean I am the devil.

WHo said you're the devil... what did.. nah I'm just putting that one in the defensive bullshit pile.... sorry.

Penny wrote: I am realistic and know that teenagers will end up trying to do things I am opposed to. I don't see whats wrong with making that difficult for them to do. If they know the rules and I know that they are breaking them then I am going to stop them. So I don't want my kids doing things that are distructive to their physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual wellbeing.

Good for you... sounds like a plan to me. I told you it was gonna work out.
Just don't forget to make it easy for them to do good stuff too... if you only focus on stopping the bad stuff they might start a competition

Penny wrote: As far as partying with my kids goes...whatever. The parents that partied with their teenagers and their friends were a complete joke when I was in highschool. Their kids didn't even respect them. They were only nice to their parents to get what they wanted from them.

that was a joke /partying withur kids). Also i mean rather to give thr teenager a glass of wine aat a family dinner rather than draging their daughter to miami to go wild on the springbreak

Just wanted to say that I am homeschooled, and absolutly chose this lifestyle myself. I have way more than one single friend, and although my parents are protective, they are not over protective.

I think it's the parent's right to try and raise the child how they please,as long as there is no physical or emotional abuse involved. Although Bree's religion is strange, so far it has not been dangerous (although we will find out tommorrow if it is) and I think it's fine that her parents "shelter" her. They did allow her to go to school, and she does have a boy for a friend. It's not as if her parents dress her up in a "tent with two eye holes" and circumcise her, they just didn't want her to get distracted. Although, if I was in her place I'd be using that tree more than once

Personally, if I had to choose between being slightly sheltered or swamped with peer pressure, I'd choose the sheltered route. For the record, we do not homeschool for religous reasons (we're lapsed catholics) and I've lead an almost stereotypical teenage life.