Lonelygirl15

Lurker wrote:

immortal1 wrote:BTW, Buffy=dramedy=mixed genres=IMO, the standard.

It's mixed genres, yes, and it's great at it, but it's not the standard by a longshot. Not even close. It's the rare exception that most shows can only dream they might someday be. Buffy was anything but a case of average writing/marketing.

Perhaps your right the nod probably goes to MASH or Moonlighting. I probably should have been more specific and said where the drama is in the scifi/fantasy genre but please, average writing? At the very least to be great at mixing genres it would have to have had better than average writing.
Other then that, I don't have much to add that wouldn't be nitpicking so on the rest we'll have to agree to disagree.

I am also glad to have been able to engage in a spirited debate on this board without it degenerating into some kind of flame war. Kudos to you for that.

immortal1 wrote:I probably should have been more specific and said where the drama is in the scifi/fantasy genre but please, average writing? At the very least to be great at mixing genres it would have to have had better than average writing.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but that was my point entirely. Since it was so exceptionally written and presented (people who liked horror, sci-fi, comedy, and drama could all easily get into it), I don't really expect most writing to be on that level. Other people have tried to emulate it since Buffy came along and it just didn't work. Whedon seems to have a fairly natural feel for that kind of thing (which is probably why professional critics love him and his shows get such dedicated followings).

immortal1 wrote:Other then that, I don't have much to add that wouldn't be nitpicking so on the rest we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's fair.

immortal1 wrote:I am also glad to have been able to engage in a spirited debate on this board without it degenerating into some kind of flame war. Kudos to you for that.

To you as well. It was a nice discussion.

Oh, and the same goes to you also, SharpI.

I would agree that your discussion was interesting, gentlemen.

If a “final showdown” were to come now (or in the near future), this kind of climatic action would lead the story into the falling action that would need to end in a final resolution. Considering that these videos are short, first-person accounts, it would be difficult to sustain a story in this “toward the end” mode over a period of time.

Considering that this large, powerful “order” is as dangerous and established as the characters have stated, then it would seem unlikely that this organization’s only focus is on one teenage girl. This story could go on forever and ever with “close calls,” “cat and mouse” games and other situations where the order comes in and out of her life at various times for various reasons.

This ceremony could be only the first of many situations where the order uses Bree, then leaves her alone, needs her for something else and then leaves her alone, and needs her for something else and leaves her alone. In between the menacing situations with the order, I suspect we could see everyday life situations, puppet-videos, getting answers videos, love trouble videos and everything else that would attempt to satisfy all audience members.

Just a thought (or thoughts) on your interesting discussion.

Lurker wrote:

immortal1 wrote:I am also glad to have been able to engage in a spirited debate on this board without it degenerating into some kind of flame war. Kudos to you for that.

To you as well. It was a nice discussion.

Oh, and the same goes to you also, SharpI.

I agree with immortal1. Good discussion, some interesting observations. Kudos to you, Lurker. I admire your even keel.

immortal1 wrote: I am also glad to have been able to engage in a spirited debate on this board without it degenerating into some kind of flame war. Kudos to you for that.

Yes, agreed. That was a great debate.

I can really see the points that both of you are making. On the one hand, the Order seems all powerful, and like it will never, ever back down. They have killed before and do not seem hesitant to do it again, and they spare Bree only because they need her for a ceremony. They really want Bree, because otherwise they would probably have given up (even if this is child's play for them, it still seems odd for them to have waited). Perhaps with Tachyon's help, the Order must be eliminated. They have been set up as a terrible force -- perhaps it needs to be done. (I really enjoy fantasy/sci-fi, and that would follow a rather fantasy/sci-fi plot).

On the other hand, seeing how the series has gone so far, the series definitely focuses in on the characters and their struggles, and I can see the Creators trying to make the Order human as well. Also, while the series definitely has the classic elements of mystery and lots of little, suspicious clues and "Watchers," etc., Bree has never really stepped up to the plate and taken action in this herself, except for some research, phone calls, and refusing to do the ceremony. And because of the way that the videos unfold, focusing on the character's decisions and not hard facts, I think that the Creators may try to find some other way to end this series than one dead or the other.

That said, the Creators have also done many things to turn the series into what it is. For example, I thought Gemma was innocent, but then she turned out to be malevolent, part of the Order, and then killed. Bree's father was killed. The Order has turned out to be far more malevolent than we made it out to be, Tachyon and Brother have been vital to the plot, and an OpAphid video has finally appeared on the left side. This series has traveled into fiction, especially an action/sci fi plot.

A storyline that I can see unfolding is Bree undergoing a major metamorphisis to be able to gather her allies and fight the Order (granted, this may take some time, and a lot of trial and error), and eventually come to a final showdown possibly, but not necessarily, resulting in the death of OpAphid, other members of the Order. It could also involve simply freeing herself and campaigning for others, or somehow immobilizing the Order. While all of these seems unlikely, we have a long time for this to unfold, and it seems to follow a natural path. We would bring our hereos together, have Bree grow, and defeat, even in small way, the Order. Of course, Bree would not escape from this unscathed -- the ordeal, and its emotional consequences, would always stay with her.

(That said, Bree's definition of "fighting the Order" is not a sci-fi book's version of "fighting the Order" -- Bree hasn't started to do this even now, really, what says she will? But I still see the above as quite plausible.)

gogo wrote:Considering that this large, powerful “order” is as dangerous and established as the characters have stated, then it would seem unlikely that this organization’s only focus is on one teenage girl. This story could go on forever and ever with “close calls,” “cat and mouse” games and other situations where the order comes in and out of her life at various times for various reasons.

This ceremony could be only the first of many situations where the order uses Bree, then leaves her alone, needs her for something else and then leaves her alone, and needs her for something else and leaves her alone. In between the menacing situations with the order, I suspect we could see everyday life situations, puppet-videos, getting answers videos, love trouble videos and everything else that would attempt to satisfy all audience members.

That's an interesting way to think of it that I hadn't thought of before. Thanks for that. I'm not sure whether that will happen, or if I want it to happen, but it would be the most logical way to keep this series going, in a way that encompasses different audiences. That would cut away from a traditional narrative arc, which I can never decide if the Creators are following or not. It also solves most of the contradictions of the arguments.

Both of you presented fantastic arguments, and it was a great debate. We can never really be sure what will happen!

(Sorry for the long, meadering post, I got a bit carried away! Just all my thoughts. )

Really good summary, Magesa, in your post above.

Magesa wrote:A storyline that I can see unfolding is Bree undergoing a major metamorphisis to be able to gather her allies and fight the Order (granted, this may take some time, and a lot of trial and error), and eventually come to a final showdown possibly, but not necessarily, resulting in the death of OpAphid, other members of the Order. It could also involve simply freeing herself and campaigning for others, or somehow immobilizing the Order. While all of these seems unlikely, we have a long time for this to unfold, and it seems to follow a natural path. We would bring our hereos together, have Bree grow, and defeat, even in small way, the Order. Of course, Bree would not escape from this unscathed -- the ordeal, and its emotional consequences, would always stay with her.

I don't think (or maybe, I just really really really hope) that we have too much time until the ceremony. And I think there IS going to be a ceremony. Another bait-and-switch is just too awful to contemplate.

I don't think we are going to see Bree fighting the Order, not in the active standard way of karate kicks and firearms. I suspect that this story is going to be more about the growth of her inner strength. She won't defeat the Order, she will be who she is and the Order will come apart as a result, the victim of its own contradictions.

Here's an example of what I mean: admittedly wildly speculative, but still maybe interesting to think about. Let's say Bree cooperates and Jonas tries to interfere but fails (a likely progression over the next few videos, I think). Now it's time for the ceremony. Bree does all the mumbo-jumbo, invokes the gods and so on, and finally puts her blood in a chalice. Head Deacon McCreepy puts the Purifying Whatever into the chalice. It's supposed to turn the blood clear, and then he'll drink it, which seals the deal making him Head Deacon for another 19 years or 666 years or whatever.

Except - Bree's blood doesn't turn clear. This time the Purifying Whatever doesn't have the usual effect. It's a simple chemical reaction - what's up? OMG the blood turns black. Head Deacon McCreepy doesn't know what to do. He doesn't dare drink. There is an uproar. He's not fit - he's not Head Deacon - others step in - the chalice is spilled - chaos - leaderless, the Order starts fighting among themselves.

Meanwhile Bree slips away. Good thing she did really well in homeschooling herself biochemistry, eh? Smart girl. She claims Daniel and they leave.

The point is: you don't have to destroy the system, just get the system untracked and it will destroy itself. I'm reminded of that old old TV series "The Prisoner," where the hero, Number 6, managed to foil the prison warden, Number 2, every week, mainly through inner strength and a little cunning. As a prisoner, No. 6 couldn't foil the system, yet always found it possible with a little nudge correctly applied to get the system to foil itself.