Flame Wars

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:40 pm

If nothing else, I think we should get some sort of new person forum, now. O.K...one accomplishment...now to hash out the best way to argue, haha. I use ill favored humor, mostly.

That hasn't helped me avoid being flamed...but...

OH. Another mention of my Ignore feature suggestion. I know that the mods can't put that into place, but I think it cold help as long as people used it. Shoot, there are a couple times I would have.

sphinx · Post by **sphinx** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:42 pm

Kasdeja wrote:See, I see many posts like this one here when someone brings up an issue...and I find passive aggression much more offensive than straight out aggression. Bottom line needs to be established for some people, just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean there isn't one. Sometimes you just don't see it, sometimes you are part of it. That does not excuse pushing the blame on others without at least conceding that maybe, just maybe the issue or complaint really just doesn't affect you.

I'm old school, where one takes responsibility for one's own actions.
If the way I have decided to word that offends you... <shrug>.

The timing of these threads is not a coincidence.
That it is the same few people who keep asking for discussion about this subject is fact.

I haven't seen much in the way of constructive remedy (which is never going to happen, people are people).

If we were discussing say, people visiting a private blog and "flaming" it would be one thing, but this is a shared place that has rules and norms. It is it's own society. To go against a society's norms is going to result in a negative reaction by that society. If this is not the result you want, personal change is needed. Society isn't going to change for you.

itsreallyreal · Post by **itsreallyreal** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:42 pm

My only bottom line is that I am a part of 5 other forum communities and NEVER do any of those communities have any of these problems...

Know what I mean?... This place is scary to some... for me... I just blast back (some have noticed) so I don't freak but it bummes me out that others who probably have great things to say feel they can;t even speakl... That's all

and YES... I just compared this place to 5 other places... and those ones are handled much cleaner and easier is all I am saying...

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:48 pm

sphinx wrote:
Kasdeja wrote:See, I see many posts like this one here when someone brings up an issue...and I find passive aggression much more offensive than straight out aggression. Bottom line needs to be established for some people, just because you don't see the problem doesn't mean there isn't one. Sometimes you just don't see it, sometimes you are part of it. That does not excuse pushing the blame on others without at least conceding that maybe, just maybe the issue or complaint really just doesn't affect you.
I'm old school, where one takes responsibility for one's own actions.
If the way I have decided to word that offends you... <shrug>.

The timing of these threads is not a coincidence.
That it is the same few people who keep asking for discussion about this subject is fact.

I haven't seen much in the way of constructive remedy (which is never going to happen, people are people).

If we were discussing say, people visiting a private blog and "flaming" it would be one thing, but this is a shared place that has rules and norms. It is it's own society. To go against a society's norms is going to result in a negative reaction by that society. If this is not the result you want, personal change is needed. Society isn't going to change for you.

I actually never said your post offended me. I used it as an example. I also find many faults with thinking an online forum needs to mirror our society. I also fundamentally disagree with you. I'm not someone who is flamed often or anything of the sort. That does not, however, mean I don't see the problem. So, there is a flaw in the logic you use.

Luminous · Post by **Luminous** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:49 pm

Kasdeja wrote: I think I'm more middle ground...I don't think things such as heated debates and 'regular' arguments should be grounds for punishment or thread locking, etc...but I see the difference between those and people just totally flaming and even ganging up on others. I don't think that sort of thing should be allowed. It's just not necessary, honestly. Now, if someone wants a thread all to themselves to do the flaming...I really don't care. However, I find it offensive to my eyes to pick through that on a thread not dedicated to that. I hope this post makes sense, lol.

I think a lot of the flaming comes from people who are, quite frankly, very intelligent, quick, and witty. I might even go so far as to say genius in their own quirky ways.

It is understandable to me that they get short and impatient with people like myself and others who are just normal. For the most part, I enjoy their banter. It only turns me off when it gets mean spirited.

I think very few of them would go off to hash it out in a separate thread. They are performance artists, and they wouldn't have an audience. I think for them, that's the fun of it.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:49 pm

itsreallyreal wrote:My only bottom line is that I am a part of 5 other forum communities and NEVER do any of those communities have any of these problems...

Know what I mean?... This place is scary to some... for me... I just blast back (some have noticed) so I don't freak but it bummes me out that others who probably have great things to say feel they can;t even speakl... That's all

and YES... I just compared this place to 5 other places... and those ones are handled much cleaner and easier is all I am saying...

Same here. I'm a forum junkie and there are many I visit where there isn't heavy moderation, but incessant flaming and defending of flaming to the point of blaming the victim isn't the norm one bit.

itsreallyreal · Post by **itsreallyreal** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:50 pm

sphinx wrote: If we were discussing say, people visiting a private blog and "flaming" it would be one thing, but this is a shared place that has rules and norms.

If there are rules I haven;t seen them... and clearly they are either being broken or not good enough rules imo...

sphinx wrote:It is it's own society. To go against a society's norms is going to result in a negative reaction by that society. If this is not the result you want, personal change is needed. Society isn't going to change for you.

This(imo) sounds like a cop-out... It like saying that somone living in a foreign country that is plagued by a horrible dictator should "fall in line"...

That's not OK with me... HAHAHahahahaha...

And if I am one of this "Small group of touble makers" then too bad... not sorry... too bad...

Why not just send the gustapo after me then? Oh wait... I think I have already met them in PM... not too effective I have to add...

When members take their flames into PM's and try to "Bully" or "Tough Talk" or just plain berate somone else... they have crossed the line just as well...

Where Are The Rules? Who "Enforces" them and "How"?

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:53 pm

I have heard talk of a no harassment rule, but I'm not sure where the forum rules are. I think they are very loose rules.

sphinx · Post by **sphinx** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:53 pm

sphinx wrote:If we were discussing say, people visiting a private blog and "flaming" it would be one thing, but this is a shared place that has rules and norms. It is it's own society. To go against a society's norms is going to result in a negative reaction by that society. If this is not the result you want, personal change is needed. Society isn't going to change for you.

Kasdeja wrote:I actually never said your post offended me. I used it as an example. I also find many faults with thinking an online forum needs to mirror our society. I also fundamentally disagree with you. I'm not someone who is flamed often or anything of the sort. That does not, however, mean I don't see the problem. So, there is a flaw in the logic you use.

I said nothing about the forum "mirroring" society.
In fact I stated it was "it's own society".

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:55 pm

Right. Hmm. Well, I've gotten along quite well in this society for some time and still am not one of those you claim all people who agree with the complaint are. So, I think the logic is flawed, to put it politely. I was never aware that being constantly beligerant or to constantly flame others was a norm in this society that was accepted. I think I must be glad there are different neighborhoods in this society.

Luminous · Post by **Luminous** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:55 pm

itsreallyreal wrote: it bummes me out that others who probably have great things to say feel they can;t even speakl... That's all

and YES... I just compared this place to 5 other places... and those ones are handled much cleaner and easier is all I am saying...

This is pretty much what bums me out too.

I'm a forum virgin. This is my first time

So I'm afraid I don't have as much to contribute in terms of solutions as I would like.

I would like to hear more from you about how things are handled in the other communities you refer to.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:57 pm

As a forum...er...slut? I dunno, you said forum virgin...ahem. well, I think an ignore feature would be useful. On another site I moderated for, if the people in question kept up their tirade and refused to take it to PMs or put each other on ignore, they could put the users on each other's ignore lists, too. I often did this to avoid banning people. I dont' think people get banned from here, often...and frankly I'd hate to see that sort of thing happen.

Killthesmiley · Post by **Killthesmiley** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:59 pm

Kasdeja wrote:
itsreallyreal wrote:My only bottom line is that I am a part of 5 other forum communities and NEVER do any of those communities have any of these problems...

Know what I mean?... This place is scary to some... for me... I just blast back (some have noticed) so I don't freak but it bummes me out that others who probably have great things to say feel they can;t even speakl... That's all

and YES... I just compared this place to 5 other places... and those ones are handled much cleaner and easier is all I am saying...
Same here. I'm a forum junkie and there are many I visit where there isn't heavy moderation, but incessant flaming and defending of flaming to the point of blaming the victim isn't the norm one bit.

I lurk most forums and I never see such a big problem.
To the comments I've seen from some, and I believe taht this is what they are saying, is that the main factor of the problem, if there real is one, is us, the people complaining. That is not the case.
The most recent argument I've been a part in was concerning my thread about people loosing interest in the story as the write was beginning to weaken. I then began getting slammed by fellow forum members being called a "Stalker" a "superfan" and was told "It's fake, get over it." and "get a life." That all was said, jsut because the fact I took a day off of work and spent the day on the computer and the forum to watch for developments because rumors were striking around talking about an OpAphid drop (which proved to be true).
Ziola, I believe you are the person who talked about "we are not children" I respect that fact and i understand. But when people start telling people that they shouldn't be on the forum, or telling people to get a life because this particular fan that they are attacking is a fan (or in their words a "superfan") they are acting in an immature and childish manner. The insults such as those ones, and down right slanderous remarks being said by certain members of the forum are childish and immature and should not be tolerated, period. Many forums have a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to remarks such like that, and it is ground for a permanent ban.
What I suggest is that the moderators solidify a policy that states if you make such a remark that is offensive and slanderous in the public forum, you are asked to have a "time out" (a week or so). If the offender does not comply, then a "time out" will be placed. If it has to be told to the offender several times, over and over again, then that said member is up for review, where their posts and rodutivity is reviewed and see if that this is a continuing problem.
Seems like a lot of work, but as a temporary solution I think we can all benift from this.
And when i say temporary, I mean temporary, just until people get the point. Slanderous comments are not tolerated.

edit: it wasn't Kas who said that, it was Ziola

Taig · Post by **Taig** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:05 pm

I am going to quote myself here from a post I just placed in another thread becasue it is my confession and my opinion.

It is from a short thread where a newbie asked for a little help

ROFL!!!!

I have got to laugh at all of us...you know what "they" have been saying is very ture. This Forum is filled with contentious opinionated troublemakers with atitudes.

A newbie comes in and asks a perfectly legitimate question and we all jump, in like a bunch of starving pirahana.. 17 different posts to one simple question and 17 different opinions. Hardly any of them helpful to anyone except the posters themselves.

Meanwhile the newbie has beat it outta here like a scared rabbit aboout 14 posts ago.

I am humbled and embarrassed and I have learned my lesson.

sheesh!

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:07 pm

Hey, at least people were trying to help in that one, lol.