[Discussion] Nikki B. canon?

[impulse]

I'm not sure why this conversation is still going on.

Because this discussion will go on and on as long as Nikki is making videos, even though the creators clearly stated she's not canon. It's like the whole Thelema discussion. It keeps coming back again and again. Or Cassie in fan fictions. It's part of the LG15 subculture.

[Lurker]

I disagree. She had as much impact on the story as the forum did. For instance, the tracking device on Daniel's car was discussed on this board before Tachyon sent the information to Daniel. Tachyon was just a messenger, in that case. The she is the girl call was made on this very board before NB mentioned her in her vid.

Actually, no, Nikki was the first to bring up Jules as being the possible new girl. You can review the forum's history if you'd like. I doubt any of us had ever even noticed her before that.

I'm not sure why this conversation is still going on.

Because this discussion will go on and on as long as Nikki is making videos, even though the creators clearly stated she's not canon.

There was nothing clearly stated about it, because we don't know what they mean by "canon." I'm thinking they must mean "We don't write, film, edit or upload it ourselves" when they say that - but, then, they called OpAPHID canon and they weren't doing any of that (though their definition may have changed since then).

In the traditional use of the word, Nikki qualifies. It just means "in continuity," which is why I find it frustrating that there's ever any disagreement over something's status as canon in this series, particularly where Nikki is concerned. It either is in the same continuity (which is to say: The very same dimension) as the official fictional world, or it's not.

In Nikki's case, she is. There's no getting around that. Even if one uses the "Until she has an impact on the main story, she's not canon" argument.

Bree mentioned the forum as well. That doesn't make us canon.

I never understand why this gets brought up as a counterpoint. The context is so obviously different.

In any case, we're all supposed to assume that we have fictional, in-character personas here anyway:

Everyone on the website (that's you!) is a character... even if you are playing yourself (like me) or playing a character (like LordGreystoke).

That's why we can be mentioned in videos without it breaking the fourth wall.

However, the Creators have said that her videos should still be considered fan fiction. She is still, essentially, developing her own storylines (or her team is) and having fun with her stories. Her videos are not required viewing to those following the LG15 series, and nothing will be revealed in Nikki's vids that won't be revealed in the LG15 vids if it's important for fans to know.

I know you're just doing the duty of your position there by reiterating that, BK, and - once again - I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but required viewing is not what it means to be canon. Look at something like "The Silmarillion" and "The Lord of the Rings": The former is hardly required reading to understand and appreciate the latter, but it's indisputably canon. A better example might be how "The Little Sisters of Eluria" is a side story to Stephen King's "The Dark Tower" series that actually occurs within continuity but is absolutely unnecessary for following the series.

Despite the claim made by the Creators previously, the fictional reality they've created tells us something different (and since they're creating that reality, it arguably means that they're telling us something different). This can only mean that they either changed their minds or that they have a different definition of "canon." We just need to find out what that definition is.

[Broken Kid]

I know you're just doing the duty of your position there by reiterating that, BK, and - once again - I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but required viewing is not what it means to be canon. Look at something like "The Silmarillion" and "The Lord of the Rings": The former is hardly required reading to understand and appreciate the latter, but it's indisputably canon. A better example might be how "The Little Sisters of Eluria" is a side story to Stephen King's "The Dark Tower" series that actually occurs within continuity but is absolutely unnecessary for following the series.

Despite the claim made by the Creators previously, the fictional reality they've created tells us something different (and since they're creating that reality, it arguably means that they're telling us something different). This can only mean that they either changed their minds or that they have a different definition of "canon." We just need to find out what that definition is.

In this case, I'm not just doing my duty. I think this is the key point that people want to know (as it was the key point with OpAphid): Do we have to watch Nikki B? In other words, if we don't watch her videos, will we lose anything regarding the LG15 story?

The Creators want us to know that you won't lose anything if you don't watch Nikki's videos. You're right, they haven't made a formal announcement, and in this case I am doing my duty by passing along their message.

My personal definition of canon is "is it required viewing to the story", and in this case, it isn't. Yes, it is fiction that takes place in the Breeniverse (but so does all fan fiction...Nikki is just closer to the action and has some inside knowledge). I would definitely encourage everyone to watch Nikki's videos, because they're a heck of a lot of fun, and Nikki is infectious. It's a nice, lighthearted break (typically) from the more serious LG15 vids.

I should say, though, that this conversation is a good one. Because although I think the mystery is unintentional, it's one of the unexpected enjoyments of LG15. I think people want to know what's required viewing in terms of itscassie, Nikki, and others, because they don't want to miss anything, but most enjoy the mystery of who's legit (or canon) and who isn't.

[impulse]

I've changed my mind.

No lurker, your arguments did not convinced me, , however, there isn't 10000 different definitions of canon. Canon doesn't mean in continuity, canon means it belongs to the works accepted as authentic of an author, or group of authors. Period.

I went back to LGpedia and credits for the very first NB videos now indicate

Producer(s........Amanda Goodfried
Director(s)........Amanda Goodfried
Camera............Amanda Goodfried
Vidplay.............Amanda Goodfried
Story................Amanda Goodfried
Editor(s)...........Amanda Goodfried

Nikki B is and has been from day one the work of Amanda. Amanda is the producer of Lonelygirl15, and has received credit for helping write the story. It makes Nikki B technically canon in the Breeniverse.

Now, it might not be required viewing, but most LG15 videos lately are not required viewing as well, and you would definitely miss something in the case of Nikki B.

[ApotheosisAZ]

My personal definition of canon is "is it required viewing to the story", and in this case, it isn't. Yes, it is fiction that takes place in the Breeniverse (but so does all fan fiction...Nikki is just closer to the action and has some inside knowledge). I would definitely encourage everyone to watch Nikki's videos, because they're a heck of a lot of fun, and Nikki is infectious. It's a nice, lighthearted break (typically) from the more serious LG15 vids.

My definition of canon as it pertains to Lonelygirl15 is the same as everyone else's.

Initially, it was said that Op's vids weren't required viewing, and then later they became neccessary to the story.

Eventually, the same thing will happen with Nikki's vids. She will continue to reveal information which is vital to the plot of the Breeniverse.

[Lurker]

In this case, I'm not just doing my duty. I think this is the key point that people want to know (as it was the key point with OpAphid): Do we have to watch Nikki B? In other words, if we don't watch her videos, will we lose anything regarding the LG15 story?

That probably is what most people want to know, yes.

My personal definition of canon is "is it required viewing to the story", and in this case, it isn't. Yes, it is fiction that takes place in the Breeniverse (but so does all fan fiction...Nikki is just closer to the action and has some inside knowledge).

Not all fanfiction can take place in the same universe. Where contradictions arise, the fanfiction is, at best, in a parallel universe. Remember that it was once said that the C's were able to incorporate OpAPHID because Glenn Rubenstein tried keeping it relatively self-contained, such that it wouldn't be neutralized by the slightest change in the main series' plot (as happened with CiW)?

As for your definition of canon, it's fair enough that you have that, but I think it merits pointing out that it was several weeks before it could have been said that OpAPHID was required viewing to understand the plot of the main series - and before that, the Creators said that it wasn't required viewing, but they also referred to it as canon during that period.

I think finding the C's definition of canon should be our new Holy Grail.

I would definitely encourage everyone to watch Nikki's videos, because they're a heck of a lot of fun, and Nikki is infectious. It's a nice, lighthearted break (typically) from the more serious LG15 vids.

I agree. Even when I believed that she wasn't part of the same universe, I encouraged people to watch her for those very reasons.

I should say, though, that this conversation is a good one. Because although I think the mystery is unintentional, it's one of the unexpected enjoyments of LG15.

Like I said, new Holy Grail.

And, yeah, this is a good conversation.

I've changed my mind.

Wonderful.

No lurker, your arguments did not convinced me, ...

That blows.

... however, there isn't 10000 different definitions of canon.

We've seen several different definitions in this thread.

Canon doesn't mean in continuity, canon means it belongs to the works accepted as authentic of an author, or group of authors. Period.

You have the same definition as me, only it seems we use different words to describe it.

The works accepted as authentic of an author or group of authors legitimize those works' place in the continuity of an established fictional world. In other words, they're "in continuity." I thought my use of "in continuity" implied what you said, but apparently I should explain it further in the future.

For the benefit of others, I'll take this time to provide an example: Most comic books set in the Buffyverse are considered non-canon, explained by the fact that many have continuity issues (contradictions, etc.), the same as much of the Expanded Universe of "Star Wars" does (ex: there's a couple of different stories relating Boba Fett's escape from the Sarlacc Pit). However, then you've got a comic book series like "Tales of the Vampires," which was written by Joss Whedon ("Buffy" creator) and four script writers from Mutant Enemy Productions.

These, like "Fray" (another series written by Whedon) and "Buffy Season Eight" (a series currently being written by Whedon, but which will be picked up by several other writers - such as Brian K. Vaughan - over the next four years) are considered to be in the same continuity as the TV series. In other words, canon.

Now, it might not be required viewing, but most LG15 videos lately are not required viewing as well, and you would definitely miss something in the case of Nikki B.

I would agree with that. Especially since Nikki introduced Jules, who is the focal point for current developments of the plot. A video like that was more relevant than the hypnosis bunker videos, for sure.

[Sami]

canon or non-canon... 'Fan-fic' just seems wrong when it comes to Nikki B.