Lonelygirl15

All right. This is the SECOND time in about SEVEN MONTHS that I've ever poked my head in here. But I will right now.

I've moderated a few boards myself. It's a tough job. I don't want to summarize too much and negate a lot of great points that have been made here, but it boils down to the option of transparency.

Transparent governing and transparency in policy are extremely important. I understand that it is easy to say and think that some people are not responsible and mature enough to handle transparency of policy - but the truth is, in some cases, the suspicion that opacity and secrecy brews is far worse than the consequences of being transparent in policy.

Don't get too Machiavellian about this, guys. Don't have your people fear you instead of love you.

I'm heading out now, back to my drama-free world outside of concerns and complaints. Those are my two pence.

EDIT: shit now i've started something in my own head. As for anything about "coverups" or such conspiracies, my opinion is who cares. Who does it affect? Why is it a big deal? This is a SHOW. It's a forum about a SHOW.

And if you're demanding transparency from your government you'd better have transparency yourself - if it's really that big a deal and it really affects everyone here, then just out with it already. I for one am sick of this crap. I'm just going to go back to enjoying the show. Where did we lose sight of personal responsibility in all of this? Maybe I'm just an arch-conservative or something, but I think everyone is choosing to make this a bigger deal than it really is. Everyone, including the mods. But then again, I don't know about these "cover-ups" - good luck to everyone involved.

I love you all, remember that, especially you KTS. I don't mean to criticize. I'm just confused.

deagol wrote:omg you people are now bashing all moderators equally, not just one. dont you get that the creation of this rule was so that moderators wouldnt get bashed and feel powerless in front of criticism? now, instead of respecting them, as this fine rule intended, everyones treating every single one of them with distrust, accusing them of being shady, treting them all like crooks. i cant believe this! i thought BK said this would help the forums, and i thought it was so true because he said it more than once. now it looks like nobody trusts BK or the rest of the moderators. it used to be that i could see each of you as fans first and as moderators second, and when moderating, i would notice from your posts what a good job you did when dealing with trolls. now that everyone is a troll and you guys cant respond to these accusations i feel sorry for you guys and i wish you could come here as fans and confront your opinions against all these people saying you're all power hungry. now i feel the need to create a rainbow or something...

Taig wrote:If they are smart they will change their names too.

Why is that, Taig?

Killthesmiley wrote:well...Neutrogena needs us. Get the picture?

Yes, Neutrogena® needs us. They need us to purchase more of their excellent line of products.

We will continue to buy such products as Neutrogena® Norwegian Formula® Hand Cream, because "It noticeably improves the look and feel of your skin."

We will do so no matter what the policy regarding posts about moderator actions here at the forum.

I couldn't help but note that the new section of the Forum Etiquette, Rules, and Policies which states the policy is just above the section about enforcement.

Perhaps moving the section containing the new rule further away from the enforcement section would make it simpler for us to lay our hands on it, should we need to.

Just another helpful suggestion from a vocal fan who supports the fine new policy.

ApotheosisAZ wrote:Perhaps moving the section containing the new rule further away from the enforcement section would make it simpler for us to lay our hands on it, should we need to.

Just another helpful suggestion from a vocal fan who supports the fine new policy.

PS
Still not clicking on any links or donating any money.

Broken Kid wrote:[...]

This policy change is intended to help keep those flames and attacks from being aimed at moderators, who have been unable to properly do their jobs in the face of these posts. The conversation shifted quickly away from the policy to some idea that because of this change, moderators are going to run wild on the forum. We have a great group of moderators, and they'll continue to do a great job. We even added an extra layer of oversight to ensure that people are making the right choice.

Yeah...after removing a far bigger one - the eyes of the entire community.

That's like taking away someone's M-16 Assault Rifle, giving him a pocket knife, and then saying "There, we even gave him an extra weapon to defend himself!".

Broken Kid wrote:While I feel - at this time - that posting the moderator guidelines will have a detrimental effect on the moderators' ability to do their jobs, I offered to post a checklist so that people can, as they requested, know when and why moderators get involved. In addition, the forum rules apply to moderators as well, of course.

What do you have to hide?

This is really simple, you know - by telling people the guidelines, you'd automatically reduce the number of people violating them, simply because they'd know what to look out for instead of just guessing.
The fact that you refuse to reveal the true guidelines anyway, and instead offer an abridged version, only tells us one thing: There is something in the original version you don't want us to know, that would upset us to a degree that we'd cry for your dismissal.
It's the only logical explanation - if it was just the usual "be firm, but be nice" kind of crap, there'd be no problem releasing them. The only logical explanation is that there is more than what other forums have. Something grossly injust to the general forum population.


So, let's see...secret rules that would upset the general population...silent removal of dissenting opinions and suppression of the opposition...and you complain about me calling "fascism"?

Broken Kid wrote:The conversation had shifted to deleting posts. There were two posts in this thread warning that off-topic or accusatory posts would be deleted. It's not a forum-wide policy, as I said, but an attempt to keep the conversation productive and from turning into a flame war. Moderators are instructed to contact a user when they delete a post or split a topic. This has always been a policy.

As I have mentioned before, this thread is drifting into off-topicness because there is no answer from your side whatsover. You just keep repeating the same stuff, like a canned PR statement, instead of actually responding to our concerns.

You, and your refusal to tell us how we're being policed, are to blame for the degradation of this thread.

Broken Kid wrote:At this point, I feel like I have responded to the issues as well as I can. I understand that people do not like or agree with all the answers. Repeating questions or points in more hostile ways will not spark a continued or productive dialog.

See above.

Broken Kid wrote:I'd strongly encourage people to see how any changes effect their experience on the forum. I firmly believe there will be virtually no effect.

Heh. And if there is, people will never know - thanks to the fact that public opposition is prohibited, and no one but you could prove PMs ever existed.

Smart, gotta give you that. Totally fucked up, but smart.

Broken Kid wrote:While this conversation has been going on, the rest of the forum has been quite active. New users drifting into C&C may feel the forum as a whole is in upheaval, but that isn't true. The forum remains an enjoyable, welcoming, and productive place! Thank you to everyone who contributes to that!

That only means more people who don't even know how they're silently being suppressed.

Taig wrote:If they are smart they will change their names too.

Taig, could you please explain this statement you made about the c's?

*waits for Apo's next Nuetrogena plug*

I don't think publicly criticising moderators has ever led to anything productive. Those threads tend to consist of rather short messages between people who have and have not disagreed with a moderator at any point. And if moderators feel that their authority is threatened by these discussions then I feel their confidence in their ability to do their job is more important than our ability to have these empty discussions.

I'm happy if we have some system of knowing when it comes to moderator action, who did what and why. Leaving a post in a thread that has been modified or privately contacting the posters involved seems sufficient. It's important because it gives us the opportunity to discuss with the moderator their actions if we have a problem with it.

I have promised myelf that I would spend little time here and contribute nothing more to the conversation. I think i can keep that promise and still extend my hand to Miss LLP in the form of a simple internet trifle...




You may redeem your coupon to anyone anywhere at any time. PLEASE NOTE: Offer good with participating huggers only.

I'm going to look at it this way:

Saying a problem on the forums got no real response other then "the mods jobs are hard, they do their best, I'm sure there was a reason"

Taking it to pm to BK got pretty much the same response.

Most of the concerns are generally ignored.

So what has really changed:

We don't have the back up of the other forum members and there is really no public record of it.

Yup great policy.

I am a site admin on a website, i have moded forums before, I have ran several very busy mIRC chat rooms, this rule is a bad idea all the way around, i would never suggest something like this for any of those forums of communication.

ApotheosisAZ wrote:Yes, Neutrogena® needs us. They need us to purchase more of their excellent line of products.

We will continue to buy such products as Neutrogena® Norwegian Formula® Hand Cream, because "It noticeably improves the look and feel of your skin.".

LMAO!!!! That post made my entire day a hell of a lot better. And it was a damn good day to start with. Oh my god, you're truly the funniest person on these forums, Apo.

deagol wrote:now i feel the need to create a rainbow or something...

########################################################################

(etc.)

ahhh yess

Off topic: That must be software created... never seen that trick before, how did you do it?

Renegade wrote:As I have mentioned before, this thread is drifting into off-topicness because there is no answer from your side whatsover. You just keep repeating the same stuff, like a canned PR statement, instead of actually responding to our concerns.

You, and your refusal to tell us how we're being policed, are to blame for the degradation of this thread.

Broken Kid wrote:At this point, I feel like I have responded to the issues as well as I can. I understand that people do not like or agree with all the answers. Repeating questions or points in more hostile ways will not spark a continued or productive dialog.

While I agree that the issues raised have not been sufficiently addressed - BK & the moderation team still has not made a statement commiting moderators to leave a comment behind when a post is edited or deleted, for instance - I think it is unfair to blame all "degradation" in this thread on one person. I see a lot of hostility and posts which are either tongue-in-cheek or sarcastic in tone, and that does not foster resolution of issues. I appreciate friendly humor, but a thread like this one is best served by sincere and thoughtful comments that converge on solutions.

What I see in BK's responses is a mixture of wanting to be responsive, but also feeling an adequate solution is in place, and wanting to walk away from this discussion and let it work. So it's encouraging that some communication continues. On the other side, I see a lot of frustration that issues & concerns raised are not being absorbed by the moderation team's approach.

I don't see an easy answer, but rather than continue attacking one person, who is at least trying to respond partially, perhaps we need to be thinking about what to request ... to put a discussion forum in place for instance ... where such issues can be hashed out carefully in an organized way, with reference to a sticky post (or two) of rules & guidelines... something like that to not solve all issues immediately, but put a structure in place to continue to fix problems going forward.

How is he "trying to respond"?
He made one initial answer, and then repeated variations of it every few days. All he's saying is "it's better this way, no need to worry, no you're not getting the guidelines" over and over again.

He's not replying. He's stalling. He's hoping the discussion will either die from boredom, or we'll give him a reason to lock the thread.

Taig wrote:I have promised myelf that I would spend little time here and contribute nothing more to the conversation. I think i can keep that promise and still extend my hand to Miss LLP in the form of a simple internet trifle...




You may redeem your coupon to anyone anywhere at any time. PLEASE NOTE: Offer good with participating huggers only.

Thank you for the coupon, Taig, and I have redeemed it from my lovely daughter Badkittyx1505. I will now pass it back to you.