Lonelygirl15

Then why the arbitrary distinction the Order is making?

Based on what both that and Luzdzus' definition of Thelemite free will, they could easily just say, "Do it or we'll kill you," and remain within their bounds of will--- and they really haven't as of yet. Taking Daniel was close, but obviously they have much greater capabilities of coersion than those they've employed thus far.

I suppose that is the message they were trying to send with Bree's father, but why not, to some literal extent, put a gun to her head?

PinkoLady wrote:Then why the arbitrary distinction the Order is making?

Based on what both that and Luzdzus' definition of Thelemite free will, they could easily just say, "Do it or we'll kill you," and remain within their bounds of will--- and they really haven't as of yet. Taking Daniel was close, but obviously they have much greater capabilities of coersion than those they've employed thus far.

I suppose that is the message they were trying to send with Bree's father, but why not, to some literal extent, put a gun to her head?

The whole thelemic thing includes some strange ideas of logic and causality. It's a system of magic (magick), and the attitude of the person taking part is just as important as the actual rituals. It may be that Bree has to accept her part as right and in tune with the cosmos, or her participation will be a useless waste of time. It also may be that she needs to be in a state of complete despair to be ready to accept whatever revelation will come to her as a result of whatever the ceremony turns out to be. Kind of like a psychic boot camp experience, where the recruit has to be broken and made to feel completely worthless before he can be rebuilt into something useful. Either way, there probably has to be some more work done on her attitude before she's ready, which could explain the way the Order has been "toying" with her. They could be molding her through the experience of fear and stress.

Added: They could also be putting her through all the running and fear so that she will feel more competent and strong when she feels that she's "defeated" their evil plots. That could also be the attitude they need.

PinkoLady wrote:Then why the arbitrary distinction the Order is making?

Based on what both that and Luzdzus' definition of Thelemite free will, they could easily just say, "Do it or we'll kill you," and remain within their bounds of will--- and they really haven't as of yet. Taking Daniel was close, but obviously they have much greater capabilities of coersion than those they've employed thus far.

I suppose that is the message they were trying to send with Bree's father, but why not, to some literal extent, put a gun to her head?

This is all true, if they can catch her alone. However, if someone is with her, they run the risk of hurting her while trying to force the her to do the ceremony (as in a struggle for the gun).

However, your point is well noted, pinkolady.

*slinkies from the shadows*

Just a thought. To go on the whole religion thing. According to Judao-Christian thought when man was created they where blessed with the one thing that would set them appart from the Angels.

Free Will.

The freedom to choose between good and evil. The freedom to choose between self and other. The freedom to choose between faith and lack of faith.

Perhaps this has something to do with why the Order needs Bree to choose. Because ultimatly the ceremony will -not- work without the use of those who choose of there own will to participate.

Anyways enough of my rambling.

*fades to black*

luzdzus wrote: The whole thelemic thing includes some strange ideas of logic and causality. It's a system of magic (magick), and the attitude of the person taking part is just as important as the actual rituals. It may be that Bree has to accept her part as right and in tune with the cosmos, or her participation will be a useless waste of time. It also may be that she needs to be in a state of complete despair to be ready to accept whatever revelation will come to her as a result of whatever the ceremony turns out to be. Kind of like a psychic boot camp experience, where the recruit has to be broken and made to feel completely worthless before he can be rebuilt into something useful. Either way, there probably has to be some more work done on her attitude before she's ready, which could explain the way the Order has been "toying" with her. They could be molding her through the experience of fear and stress.

Added: They could also be putting her through all the running and fear so that she will feel more competent and strong when she feels that she's "defeated" their evil plots. That could also be the attitude they need.

Luz, everything in this post is well thought out, and intelligent. Thank you.

luzdzus wrote:
The whole thelemic thing includes some strange ideas of logic and causality. It's a system of magic (magick), and the attitude of the person taking part is just as important as the actual rituals. It may be that Bree has to accept her part as right and in tune with the cosmos, or her participation will be a useless waste of time.

But she almost went through with ceremony just because Daniel was kidnapped, as a human ransom-- and she would have done it with more or less the same attitude as if they'd threatened her life instead of Daniel's (defeated and fundamentally unwilling), which is the where I find the line they're drawing fairly arbitrary.

Unless they were never going to go through with the ceremony at that time anyway, because of the next point:

luzdzus wrote: It also may be that she needs to be in a state of complete despair to be ready to accept whatever revelation will come to her as a result of whatever the ceremony turns out to be. Kind of like a psychic boot camp experience, where the recruit has to be broken and made to feel completely worthless before he can be rebuilt into something useful. Either way, there probably has to be some more work done on her attitude before she's ready, which could explain the way the Order has been "toying" with her. They could be molding her through the experience of fear and stress.

Yeah, I've considered for a while that the chase was part of the preparation for the ceremony-- it's the only thing that explains why they let her run in the first place, when they could have convinced her to go through with the ceremony much more easily when she still had some degree of trust in the Order, and before they ever freaked her out by taking her "parents" away. There has to be some reasoning as to why her mother, being high up in the Order, let her go away with Daniel in the first place, or why Daniel was put in a position where he was able to put doubt in her mind, etc.

PinkoLady wrote:

luzdzus wrote:
The whole thelemic thing includes some strange ideas of logic and causality. It's a system of magic (magick), and the attitude of the person taking part is just as important as the actual rituals. It may be that Bree has to accept her part as right and in tune with the cosmos, or her participation will be a useless waste of time.

But she almost went through with ceremony just because Daniel was kidnapped, as a human ransom-- and she would have done it with more or less the same attitude as if they'd threatened her life instead of Daniel's (defeated and fundamentally unwilling), which is the where I find the line they're drawing fairly arbitrary.

Which asks us how important is true free will to the order and their beliefs? They ask Bree to make her own choice while they deny any choice of hers that doesn't agree with their own. They use scare tactics and threats to force Bree to make a choice that isn't truely what she wanted.

PinkoLady wrote:

luzdzus wrote: It also may be that she needs to be in a state of complete despair to be ready to accept whatever revelation will come to her as a result of whatever the ceremony turns out to be. Kind of like a psychic boot camp experience, where the recruit has to be broken and made to feel completely worthless before he can be rebuilt into something useful. Either way, there probably has to be some more work done on her attitude before she's ready, which could explain the way the Order has been "toying" with her. They could be molding her through the experience of fear and stress.

Yeah, I've considered for a while that the chase was part of the preparation for the ceremony-- it's the only thing that explains why they let her run in the first place, when they could have convinced her to go through with the ceremony much more easily when she still had some degree of trust in the Order, and before they ever freaked her out by taking her "parents" away. There has to be some reasoning as to why her mother, being high up in the Order, let her go away with Daniel in the first place, or why Daniel was put in a position where he was able to put doubt in her mind, etc.

Perhaps Daniel is also being tested. Or he is an unaware participant of Bree's ultimate testing/deconstruction. Although I don't think the order is trying to mentally break her down to the point where she has no self esteem---I think they were trying to wear her out. Wear her out until she thought she had no other choice but to go back to them. If she realised she has no other way to turn, then by her own 'free will' she would indeed choose to go back to them. Also because 'their way' is all the only 'way' Bree actually knows.

Let't put it this way. The order wants her to COME to themof her own CHOICE. I believe that to do that something major would have to happen in her life to make the light bulb go on and then she will GO TO them and say she is ready...
She has to WANT to do it, not be forced. Does that make sense??

Theresa

theresascraps wrote:Let't put it this way. The order wants her to COME to themof her own CHOICE. I believe that to do that something major would have to happen in her life to make the light bulb go on and then she will GO TO them and say she is ready...
She has to WANT to do it, not be forced. Does that make sense??

Theresa

Definately. They are still using scare tactics to make her change her mind.

Instead of grabbing her and forcing her to do the ceremony...they are 'forcing' her to change her mind..its still coming of her own FREE WILL, but she's being forced to change her mind on the matter.

oh yeah nobackspace. I also think this love triangle thing could push her more towards the order.

theresa

theresascraps wrote:oh yeah nobackspace. I also think this love triangle thing could push her more towards the order.

theresa

I think it will probably push Daniel towards the order personally.

longlostposter wrote:Crowley said, "Do what thy wilt, will be the whole of the Law", and then, "Love under Will".

I've been looking into Crowley's definition of "Will", and it's not what we would consider a person's "will". Crowley defined will as "divine destiny", so love under will may mean that will is more important than love, and therefore, helping a person reach their "divine destiny" is more important than loving a person, or is the same thing.

www.thelema.org

It's actually "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will." - Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein. - Liber AL I:54

What love under will means (at least as Crowley explained) is that every act must be done *with* love - or more precisely Agape, which is a universal love rather than "loving a person".

Destiny is also too rigid of a term, few Thelemites believe in destiny, although they do typically believe that we have a divine *purpose*, a path, or as Crowley put it, an "orbit" which we all can choose to follow - or not. Anything that deviates from this "orbit" is against our True Will. We can *do* it, certainly, but then it becomes Black Magick (for lack of a better term).

Of course, the trick is finding out one's True Will. "thou has no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay" - Liber AL I:42.

The problem I have with Bree is not with her free will but with her initiative. Really, the Order can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to do because her will is too strong. But she often lacks the initiative to put her will into action. She only takes action when others urge her to do so--Tachyon, Jonas, Daniel, OpAphid, whomever. And as a corollary to that, she doesn't question things unless someone (known or unknown) provokes that question, and then she questions that person's motives without really thinking about the motives from that person's perspective. I know that she can't be too insightful and motivated, or else her trials with the Order would be over by now. But she should follow Daniel's example and take some initiative, and then she'd feel like she's actually doing something . But I'll give her props for meeting up with Jonas and later on meeting up with her dad; those were very important actions that she alone decided. I don't know whether or not Bree concocted the Daniel rescue plan entirely by herself, so I won't count that.

sororyzbl wrote:

longlostposter wrote:Crowley said, "Do what thy wilt, will be the whole of the Law", and then, "Love under Will".

I've been looking into Crowley's definition of "Will", and it's not what we would consider a person's "will". Crowley defined will as "divine destiny", so love under will may mean that will is more important than love, and therefore, helping a person reach their "divine destiny" is more important than loving a person, or is the same thing.

www.thelema.org

It's actually "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will." - Change not as much as the style of a letter; for behold! thou, o prophet, shalt not behold all these mysteries hidden therein. - Liber AL I:54

What love under will means (at least as Crowley explained) is that every act must be done *with* love - or more precisely Agape, which is a universal love rather than "loving a person".

Destiny is also too rigid of a term, few Thelemites believe in destiny, although they do typically believe that we have a divine *purpose*, a path, or as Crowley put it, an "orbit" which we all can choose to follow - or not. Anything that deviates from this "orbit" is against our True Will. We can *do* it, certainly, but then it becomes Black Magick (for lack of a better term).

Of course, the trick is finding out one's True Will. "thou has no right but to do thy will. Do that, and no other shall say nay" - Liber AL I:42.

Obviously you know more about this than I do, so I concede my point to your superior knowledge.

Since you are so knowledgable about Crowley, can you shed some light and how this "Order" has anything to do with Crowley? Or do you think the shrine in Bree's bedroom is a trigger of some kind (or some other thing)? I'd be interested in getting your feedback on this.

Kanazaka wrote:The problem I have with Bree is not with her free will but with her initiative. Really, the Order can't force her to do anything she doesn't want to do because her will is too strong. But she often lacks the initiative to put her will into action. She only takes action when others urge her to do so--Tachyon, Jonas, Daniel, OpAphid, whomever. And as a corollary to that, she doesn't question things unless someone (known or unknown) provokes that question, and then she questions that person's motives without really thinking about the motives from that person's perspective. I know that she can't be too insightful and motivated, or else her trials with the Order would be over by now. But she should follow Daniel's example and take some initiative, and then she'd feel like she's actually doing something . But I'll give her props for meeting up with Jonas and later on meeting up with her dad; those were very important actions that she alone decided. I don't know whether or not Bree concocted the Daniel rescue plan entirely by herself, so I won't count that.

I agree with all of this, except I don't see Daniel as having spectacular initative either.

longlostposter wrote:Obviously you know more about this than I do, so I concede my point to your superior knowledge.

Since you are so knowledgable about Crowley, can you shed some light and how this "Order" has anything to do with Crowley? Or do you think the shrine in Bree's bedroom is a trigger of some kind (or some other thing)? I'd be interested in getting your feedback on this.

I actually had a thought about this while driving home the other day - the whole free will vs True Will vs "coerced will" and how it would factor into both Thelema and the LG15 mythos/Order of Denderah.

Let's take an example from Christianity - the Branch Davidians. They were a fundamentalist sect, who got caught up in the apocalyptic and messianic aspects of that faith to such an extent that they felt that the end was there - and the second coming of Jesus was right there with them (David Koresh, for those too young to remember). The doctrine of Christianity became twisted to support Koresh's belief in himself as messiah.

Now how does this relate to the Order of Denderah? Liber AL has a few messianic verses:

"The child of thy bowels, he shall behold them." - AL I:55
":4 6 3 8 A B K 2 4 A L G M O R 3 Y X 24 89 R P S T O V A L. What meaneth this, o prophet? Thou knowest not; nor shalt thou know ever. There cometh one to follow thee: he shall expound it. But remember, o chosen one, to be me; to follow the love of Nu in the star-lit heaven; to look forth upon men, to tell them this glad word." - AL II:77
"There cometh a rich man from the West who shall pour his gold upon thee." - AL III:31

Let's say there was an Thelemite, let's call him Frater Bubba. A California trust fund baby, he's got a few million dollars in the bank somewhere. He was born on April 6, 1938, and his name is Alan Bradley Koresh (ha). When he's 24, he reads the Book of the Law and decides "oh my god, that's me!". He joins the OTO, but it's in shambles, so he quits and forms his own order. It flounders for a while, but slowly he builds up some power and influence amongst people. Eventually, most of the Thelema is gone, except for recognition of Crowley as the prophet and Liber AL as a holy book, but they're inconsequential - Alan Koresh is the Thelemic Messiah - love of HIM is the law, and True Will is defined as whatever Koresh says it is, after all, who better to decide what is good for the "stars" but the Messiah - the incarnation of Ra Hoor Khuit on earth. A new pharaoh, if you will. To maintain that illusion of free will, you are given options - serve or die (or be terrorized, or have your father killed, etc). All in the name of the Messiah of the New Aeon.

There's a workable theory. A cult, based on Thelema just as the Branch Davidians were based on Christianity. Crowley's there as a prophet, just as Jesus was still in the Davidians, but his position is a lesser one. Why look to a dead guy when you've got a living, breathing, walking, talking incarnation of a God right next to you?

The funny thing is this is what Crowley warned about in his writings. To whit, the comment to Liber AL vel Legis:

The study of this Book is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading.
Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire.
Those who discuss the contents of this Book are to be shunned by all, as centres of pestilence.
All questions of the Law are to be decided only by appeal to my writings, each for himself.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

Of course, I doubt if LG15 will end with the whole Order of Denderah being destroyed in a huge ATF raid, but maybe if the creators can drum up a million bucks for a nice finale...