On the Jumping of Sharks--What LG15 is Doing Wrong

[DreamerM]

wow I am sure the Creaters love you telling them how to run their show.....

Dude, I made a whole thread to talk about everything they are doing wrong. I'm sure they love me a whole lot for assuming I know how to fix thier cracking product and for saying things like "concentrate on te story" and "pick up the dangling plot threads" like they are easy. Oh well. So it goes.

Plus I don't care how they run thier show. I'm more worried about how they write their show. Miles said they had problems "finding the correct pacing." Believe me, if you know where your story is going, the pacing happens without you paying any attention to it.

Earlier in the thread, someone accused me of hating the show. If I hated the show, I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of registering and posting all the ways I think it can be fixed. I would have simply left the site and never come back.

Thank you vanillaflava for getting us back on topic. I think your comments are right on the money (except the one about Yosef being the one thing holding this show together.) He's a fine actor, but he is not the one thing holding this show together. And while it's true Daniel is the ONE character on this show who is not a totall bubblehead, the fact that he has been so quick to forget how scared he was of the Order kind of detracts from our empathy for him, since we remember, even if he doesn't, how creepy all the stuff that was going on was.

[HyeMew]

This is rather off topic, but I don't want to create a new thread just for this.
CNN has these mini-segments on nominees for Time's person of the year, and they just showed one for YouTube (while not a person, it wouldn't be the only non-person to win... the Earth won once..). I'm mentioning this because they were showing various clips and they showed one of Bree with LONELYGIRL15 written across it. They were just showing real fast 1 second views of various things, it was followed by one of Jess's "real world" picture and then another thing with the title LONELYGIRL COMES OUT or something like that. During this point they were discussing, sure lots of stuff on YouTube is frivolous, but they had just shown all these important things like video from Iraq and how it gives soldiers a way to interact with back home.

[Lurker]

To Our Intelligent and Insightful Fans,

I have read every single post in this thread. I have read the majority of posts in the majority of threads in this forum since its inception. I spend all day, every day living and breathing LG15. It is my entire existence. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input and value your thoughts.

You're welcome, Miles. We appreciate what you guys are doing as well, which is largely why we so badly want to see you succeed. Thanks for replying to us like this, by the way. It is really great to know the extent to which our thoughts are observed by you.

Honestly, I agree with most of your comments. It makes me sad that we haven't been able to meet your expectations.

I was pretty sure you guys were aware of the issues, as I stated much earlier in the thread. Glad to know that my hunch was right.

The fact is that shows cost money to produce.

Yeah, that is a whole other issue, aside from pacing and everything else. I'd be surprised, though, if you guys couldn't find some sponsors for merchandise placement. Hell, some YouTubers get asked to do market placement in their vlogs -- and this has gotten much bigger than even the biggest of them.

Though I imagine the major difficulty there is finding a sponsor who's willing to let the show continue to evolve naturally instead of serving as a commercial. I'm thinking back to the Thanksgiving vid here. None of the labels on those groceries were shown in the video, but if you guys had some sponsors there, they'd have gotten some nice ad placement even while the webisode felt natural.

1) The show IS interactive. We constantly adapt the show based on your responses. It IS NOT choose-your-own adventure, but your opinions guide the direction, tone and pacing.

It's good to hear that, but I think I'm going to have to echo curiousGeorge -- if our input is what's affecting the tone (Bree's antics, for instance) and pacing (I went over this earlier), it might be a good idea to take the reigns back over completely for a little while until you guys can get it to where you would like it to be.

I know the interactivity is a major goal, but don't ever let us bring the ship down if you already know what would be better.

It's definitely a fine balance between "interesting action" and "real life," but I know that we can find that balance.

We'll continue hoping right along with you.

3) Plot holes. The vast majority of clues, riddles, and plot mysteries that we placed in the past WILL pay off. Some of those payoffs will happen soon.... others will happen later. Have we dropped the ball a few times? Yes. Needless to say, it is VERY difficult to track and payoff every detail of plot with our current staff and resources. That will change.

Okay, like curiousGeorge said, this is one of the most important things you mentioned. This promise really means a lot to see.

What I'd suggest, though, is if you guys feel like you're having trouble keeping up with all the plot threads, perhaps we the fans could compile a list here on the forum of all the unresolved plot elements up to this point (does anyone know if there's something like that already?)? That would provide you guys with a quick and easy reference.

It wouldn't be the first time a creator has gotten an index of sorts to help with their work. For the last three books of The Dark Tower series, Stephen King used The Dark Tower Concordance, an index of people, places, terms, etc. compiled by a friend of a friend. Of course, we'd want to shoot for a better ending than Stephen King gave and we'd be wanting to wrap up plot holes instead of introduce new ones, but this list would be for the sole purpose of compiling all these unresolved matters. King was using that index simply because he couldn't remember the wide spectrum of things that had been introduced in the previous four books.

As far as addressing all these plot elements goes, once you have a reference compiled, perhaps it would be better to get everyone from the various teams together and go over every last thing until everyone knew what page you guys are on -- and what needed to be addressed. Like others have suggested, I think doing this and taking the reigns away from the fans for a little while would do wonders for the pacing and direction.

Thanks for all of your feedback. Bottom line, I agree with the majority of it and I am working to address your concerns. I hope curiousgeorge doesn't rip me for intruding but I really wanted to respond to your concerns and tell you what's going on with us.

Miles (One of The Creators)

Again, you're welcome. Thanks for dropping by to reassure us. We're eager to see where things go, and we'll continue to provide insight if we think we can help.

[flwright]

Hi All,

I'm visiting from Anchor Cove, but I've been around since T-Rex ate PaytotheOrderOfOf2's house. I think DreamerM's comments (except for the mean ones) are right on the button. And Trainer101 makes a spirited defense. The defense would be a little more believable if fan interaction really drove the story. The whole premise of Lonelygirl15 was to tell a convincing fiction using all the virtual devices available on the Internets.

M&M&G&A were never asking us to be Creators, only actors. At most, we were allowed to do a little impov. The best responses to Lonelygirl15 (Lonesome October, Terryfic, TWJaniak, and a few others, including the original Cassieiswatching video) don't advance the storyline, they are all jazz riffs on the melody laid down by M&M.

The melody has hit some sour notes lately, Jonas in particular.

As for Bree, it's easy to confuse nice and "cute" with lack of backbone. She's a fundamentally optimistic and positive person, her silliness helps her cope with a bad situation. Still, DreamerM is correct, Bree needs to show her smarts and her backbone (remember that she is the one that was the driving force behind the vlogging in the first place). She needs to acknowledge the loss of her parents and her situation with some concrete action.

And thank you Miles for your heartfelt post. You and Mesh and Greg and Amanda and Jess and Yousef set a very high bar with your early videos. It will always be a challenge to keep it Breal.

Later,

FLWright

[JayHank]

I'm not going to reiterate all the previous points. I want this show to be good, even if it's not. I'm still rooting for it, etc. I don't begrudge your efforts to earn money.

But this seems to be where you've lost sight of 1) what your show is and 2) what we're talking about.

You seem to have forgotten that the reason LG15 was once a great show, was because it was realistic. It was something that a shy 16-year-old girl and her geeky 18-year-old friend could produce out of their bedrooms.

The reason the show is bad is not because of budget issues. I understand the strain of being tight on cash. But I don't see how the lack of cash is responsible for an outlandish plot.

You have no money, therefore you have decided that it's "realistic" for these characters to spend over a month living in hotels and on the streets. You have no money, therefore you have decided that it's realistic for The Order to control the LAPD? You have no money, therefore it's realistic for the Gemma character to have homeless friends and tell a whiny story about a bad date? You have no money, therefore it's realistic for Bree to want to go live with an internet stranger? You have no money, therefore it's realistic that the Order would spend hours and hours staging a fake ceremony to take pictures of Daniel?

Nonsense.

Fix your plot. Quit inventing new loose threads until you're confident you can tie off a couple of existing ones. It has nothing to do with money. Don't even worry about pacing for a week -- the pacing is so absurd it cannot be saved -- and focus entirely on the storyline. The storyline must start to make sense again.

You guys got famous because people thought this might be real. Only the clinically insane could think that anymore.

[Luv2Skydive]

I'm not going to reiterate all the previous points. I want this show to be good, even if it's not. I'm still rooting for it, etc. I don't begrudge your efforts to earn money.

But this seems to be where you've lost sight of 1) what your show is and 2) what we're talking about.

You seem to have forgotten that the reason LG15 was once a great show, was because it was realistic. It was something that a shy 16-year-old girl and her geeky 18-year-old friend could produce out of their bedrooms.

The reason the show is bad is not because of budget issues. I understand the strain of being tight on cash. But I don't see how the lack of cash is responsible for an outlandish plot.

You have no money, therefore you have decided that it's "realistic" for these characters to spend over a month living in hotels and on the streets. You have no money, therefore you have decided that it's realistic for The Order to control the LAPD? You have no money, therefore it's realistic for the Gemma character to have homeless friends and tell a whiny story about a bad date? You have no money, therefore it's realistic for Bree to want to go live with an internet stranger? You have no money, therefore it's realistic that the Order would spend hours and hours staging a fake ceremony to take pictures of Daniel?

Nonsense.

Fix your plot. Quit inventing new loose threads until you're confident you can tie off a couple of existing ones. It has nothing to do with money. Don't even worry about pacing for a week -- the pacing is so absurd it cannot be saved -- and focus entirely on the storyline. The storyline must start to make sense again.

You guys got famous because people thought this might be real. Only the clinically insane could think that anymore.

Totally in agreement 100%.....lack of budget does not explain the way this story has exploded into a million pieces.

[DreamerM]

Welcome to the fray, Jayhank and thank you for not mincing words.

I'll repeat it along with you: lack of funds is no excuse for how outlandish this plot has gotten.

Miles: This is not something you can put-off dealing with. You need to pull people together, sit down and figure this out.

We feel for your financial woes, Miles, but we need you to fix your product or no one will be around to consume the lucrative stuff.

I'm not worried it'll become a commercial. The creators have enough backbone to prevent that. I have no problem with adds or product placement.

I am worried about ever getting this crazy lack-of-plot under control again.

[The Creators]

Thanks for you responses. Interestingly, lack of funding does affect the plot:

1) Cheesy as it is, time=money. Right now each of us does the job of about four people. So, none of us are full time writers on the show. Pulling people together, sitting down, etc. is literally only possible once in a great while since we are running around like crazy doing a million things each (and we need to do those things in order to build this show into something sustainable). Money will allow us to do the most important thing we are lacking: hire more people. I filmed this morning, right now I'm waiting for a video to upload, but I really need to be at a meeting that I'm missing, and I REALLY need to write. So, money will definitely solve the problem of time which in turn will solve the problem of plot.

2) Money allows us to fully express our creativity. It would allow us to use a house for Jonas where we could show the rooms. Allow us to rent cars to increase the drama in certain videos. Allow us to hire actors to play other roles either as principles or extras. Allow us to film in different locations. Although it's not necessary, it certainly helps to have this flexibility.

3) immortal1 made a statement which I find very accurate. There is no handbook for how to create an internet show. Frankly, that's what's so cool and why I love doing this but it makes it difficult. Every single movie follows a three act structure. Every single 1 hour drama and 1/2 hour comedy follows a formula... down to the number of jokes per minute and the cliffhangers before commercials. We are working out the structure as we go and are improving it little by little. I think we'll come up with something that works consistently.

DreamerM: I 100% understand the importance of maintaining quality of the core product. Frankly, LG15 would suck right now if all of us weren't working to the bone to produce a show that should require a team of 10 to 15 minimum. LG15 will continue to improve. The plot will continue to interest all of you... realize that there IS a plot unfolding and that we HAVE planned things out a lot already. We are definitely not meandering and you will definitely be rewarded.

I'm thankful for your understanding, but realize that none of my statements are excuses (I'm a former surgeon... there are no excuses . We will improve even if it means I never sleep Thanks everyone, and enjoy.

Miles

[SharpI]

I don't see how the lack of cash is responsible for an outlandish plot.

You have no money, therefore (a) you have decided that it's "realistic" for these characters to spend over a month living in hotels and on the streets. You have no money, therefore (b) you have decided that it's realistic for The Order to control the LAPD? You have no money, therefore (c) it's realistic for the Gemma character to have homeless friends and tell a whiny story about a bad date? You have no money, therefore (d) it's realistic for Bree to want to go live with an internet stranger? You have no money, therefore (e) it's realistic that the Order would spend hours and hours staging a fake ceremony to take pictures of Daniel?

I have a problem with this glib characterization of the plot. I find some of these points are valid, but others are sound-bitey.

(a) If Bree is deeply afraid of the Order, then yes, it's realistic for her to flee. Why wouldn't she be afraid? They took her parents.

(b) This is valid. I agree with JayHank here: 'The Order controls the LAPD' is outlandish. Bree and Daniel can't go to the police because (a) they have no evidence for their wild story, (b) the police would not believe them even if they did, and (c) the police would probably turn Bree, a minor, over to Child Protective Services. The Creators would have been better off saying "we can't go to the police, we have no evidence," or to say, "we went to the police - they didn't believe us" and maybe it's not too late.

(c) If Gemma is under duress and speaking in code, then yes, it's realistic for her to violate conversational protocol.

(d) ??? People trust Internet strangers all the time, including people that are not young, naive and in straitened circumstances. What is unrealistic about a young girl trusting Jonas, who is (you have to admit) charismatic?

(e) This is valid. Agree with JH - it was a terrible plotting mistake. I don't see any way to undo it, so I guess we just gotta move on.

[treefunk]

First off, excellent analysis SharpI. Second, Jay, I think that your beef with the story runs deep enough where it's no longer constructive criticism--it's almost irrelevant.

But this seems to be where you've lost sight of 1) what your show is and 2) what we're talking about.

You seem to have forgotten that the reason LG15 was once a great show, was because it was realistic. It was something that a shy 16-year-old girl and her geeky 18-year-old friend could produce out of their bedrooms.

You guys got famous because people thought this might be real. Only the clinically insane could think that anymore.

I certainly can understand how you and other viewers, who got hooked on this show as it was when Bree was in her bedroom, could be disappointed with the very different plot that now exists. But this is where the creators intended to go from the beginning. And yes, running from OpAphid is a much less believable plotline than a teenage vlogger playing with a pink boa, but this is and always was intended to be a show, not a real vlog. Plenty of shows are captivating without being totally realistic; few shows are totally realistic without sacrificing entertainment.

If you just don't like the type of story that LG15 is, there might not be much reason for hope. I think that what this thread has best contributed is sound advice relating to the mechanisms of delivering the story that the creators have in mind.

I would disagree that it was the original believability that attracted so many viewers. I would argue that it was rather the effective exploitation of the vlog/youtube medium. The creators expanded their viewership by using the networks of established communities of vbloggers and fans to generate buzz. Moreover, this medium is quite new and it is exciting to see how they will use it, and in doing so develop it.

I think the fundamental reasons for fan angst is that the creators recently have not been as effective at exploiting their medium. It is safe to wager that there is near consensus among fans that Gemma and Jonas could have been more effectively introduced, in a way that would have generated more buzz, viewership, and hence money. And the style between the Bree/Daniel videos and Gemma's and Jonas' is too similar to be believable. This is a delivery problem that I think the creators can alleviate somewhat just by keeping it in mind while writing, but to really fix this problem, they will need to hire more writers--and it should be clear that, regrettably, that's not currently possible.

[Lurker]

I would disagree that it was the original believability that attracted so many viewers. I would argue that it was rather the effective exploitation of the vlog/youtube medium. The creators expanded their viewership by using the networks of established communities of vbloggers and fans to generate buzz. Moreover, this medium is quite new and it is exciting to see how they will use it, and in doing so develop it.

I agree with you. For me it was mainly that and just the enjoyment of the Bree-Daniel dynamic that made me interested.

And this is coming from someone who was watching before the "outing" came along. In other words, I never believed this was about an actual 16-year old girl named "Bree." I thought it was obvious even from the first video I watched ("The Danielbeast"; the vid that got me hooked) that it was all a production. What made me keep watching, though, is 1) because it was fun, 2) the speculation around whether it was real or not was enjoyable, and 3) I knew I was watching a new stage in entertainment history develop.

Lots of people knew the outing would come -- or they just wanted to see if one would ever come -- and then we'd hear what the people behind it had in mind for productions in this medium. So, yeah, I really don't think it was any believability factor. LG15 was hardly more realistic than any of the vlogs that weren't fictional productions -- yet it got a draw unlike most of them (with a few exceptions, such as Brookers; of course, it eventually surpassed her).

And the style between the Bree/Daniel videos and Gemma's and Jonas' is too similar to be believable. This is a delivery problem that I think the creators can alleviate somewhat just by keeping it in mind while writing, but to really fix this problem, they will need to hire more writers--and it should be clear that, regrettably, that's not currently possible.

I don't see why more writers would be needed for something like that. How the videos are edited would just tell us something about the characters' personalities. Obviously both of our main characters and our two main supporting cast members have different personalities and should edit their videos differently.

I don't see how it's any more difficulty for a single writer to express this difference in personality through editing than it is for a single writer to write a different speaking style for four different characters in a novel. There's absolutely no reason additional writers would be needed to figure out how to edit the videos differently.

[DreamerM]

I'm also tired of everyone being a complete bubblehead except for Daniel, and Daniel's a bit thick.

Daniel was unable to remember what Bree's play was about or much else about the religion her life is centered around besides that he thinks it's creepy. How much does he really know about her life? We know he hung around camps and functions she was in and so he should know SOMETHING.

Plus, Daniel, despite being the main force behind the events that made them hit the road to begin with, sure was quick to forget his fear once thier living conditions became uncomfortable. Then again, maybe the main reason behind his growchyness is he's as disgusted as we are with Bree's deep denial and refusal to deal with her situation. He knows she's smart, probably much smarter then him, but she'd rather talk to her stuffed animals then use those smarts to help him figure out a course of action. His fear shrinks when compaired to his frustration with her, and he just wants to go home.

I can't stand Gemma. Despite being the one person willing to take positive action once things got serious, the fact she continues to talk about her flatmates and her bad dates when her "friends" are living on the FRIGGIN' STREETS means she's shallow as well as annoying. Everything's all about her in her mind, and she needs to either wise up and say something useful or go away.

Jonas is a male Bree minus the smarts: he's cute, he's playful, and he's dumb as a post. Whoever thought he'd be a good addition to the cast was on some good drugs.

Tell me why I should care about the new people, stat, or trim them and the production will cost that much less.

And they should edit the videos differently, definately. Seen one, seen 'em all. People called Jonas on being cannon before he was announced formally simply because of the editing.

Mix it up a little. Let's get to know these people.

[Lurker]

Plus, Daniel, despite being the main force behind the events that made them hit the road to begin with, sure was quick to forget his fear once thier living conditions became uncomfortable. Then again, maybe the main reason behind his growchyness is he's as disgusted as we are with Bree's deep denial and refusal to deal with her situation. He knows she's smart, probably much smarter then him, but she'd rather talk to her stuffed animals then use those smarts to help him figure out a course of action. His fear shrinks when compaired to his frustration with her, and he just wants to go home.

That's what I think's happening.

I can't stand Gemma. Despite being the one person willing to take positive action once things got serious, the fact she continues to talk about her flatmates and her bad dates when her "friends" are living on the FRIGGIN' STREETS means she's shallow as well as annoying. Everything's all about her in her mind, and she needs to either wise up and say something useful or go away.

I think she's still trying to speak in code. The date sounded an awful lot like it was supposed to be an analogy of some sort, especially since she said "I think my story will help you understand your current situation." Sounds like she's saying Bree's being a judgment-clouded buffoon. She won't get any argument from me there.

And they should edit the videos differently, definately. Seen one, seen 'em all. People called Jonas on being cannon before he was announced formally simply because of the editing.

Mix it up a little. Let's get to know these people.

We agree there. Jonas was obviously canon on the basis of editing alone.

These people should have unique personalities, and that should show through in how they edit. Most people don't edit the same. Hell, some people wouldn't be editing their video at all anyway. Why do none of these four just let the camera roll freely and refrain from hacking their footage up?

[SharpI]

...Lack of funding does affect the plot... <snip> Money allows us to fully express our creativity. It would allow us to use a house for Jonas where we could show the rooms...

No disrespect, guys, but I couldn't pass this one up. Money was not the problem with this video. The problem was shooting a video that demanded funding you did not have.

Creativity in this case would have been to rewrite the script so that Jonas showed off something you *do* have. What sprung to my mind was: if he tried calling his friends to vouch for him... only he dials and dials but no one picks up. Might have had a funny moment, and maybe a little sad. Maybe kind of dull, but maybe no duller than closed doors?

[stuart2004]

We need something to HAPPEN. It can be the Watcher actually DOING SOMETHING, preferably something evil. It can be some sort of breakthrough Gemma has about what the nature of the ceremony is. It can be Bree finally being forthcoming about her community and laying out some key information she's been withholding. It can be a call from her parents, telling her to come home (when it's a trap) and Bree vanishes, forcing Daniel to break into Lucy's house again and learn something new. It could even be an accident, prompting Bree to make a trip to the emergency room, where a medical examination provides some information about what the shots and pills were.

Something. Anything....


We need some ACTION, STAT.

Ha! Good stuff.

Pi

HAHA "A PI IS HEAVEN"............see look theres actually a PI hahahah you are part of my favorite anagram...(i hope you are female.it could be a little weird if you were a dude)

I think Daniel breaking into Lucy's apartment again would just be to repetitive ... I think they should in all seriousness go visit Jonas...which of course he turn out to be part of the order....... and Bree s kidnapped..... and then it would be kewl to see from OPPY a hiden camera view of Jonas's home where Daniel beats the crap out of Jonas in an attempt to Interrogate him...that would be awesome