[Discussion] Status of Jonas and Daniel

tiltingwindward · Post by **tiltingwindward** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:58 pm

madsweeney, Damoreve, who has experience with flashbangs, has said that simply closing your eyes doesn't protect you from that amount of light...and anyhow, the Order people were all wearing sunglasses (inside...quoi?). So I think the only thing that may have saved Bree is that she was right near the front of the elevator and the door was opening. Maybe she threw herself out?

You're right, though; we have no idea how much time passed before people were capable of running away. Jonas certainly didn't recover as quickly as Bree; he hadn't turned the camera back on by the time she shouted for Daniel to run.

And this raises another question (I'm sorry, I'm sorry): It didn't look to me like Jonas knew what was going to happen. The way Bree was telling him to take care of Daniel, the look in her eyes, told me that she hadn't let Jonas in on the plan. Is it possible that she didn't trust him for some reason (other than the obvious one, of course)? Did Tachyon warn her?

staticmorning · Post by **staticmorning** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:35 pm

tiltingwindward wrote: And this raises another question (I'm sorry, I'm sorry): It didn't look to me like Jonas knew what was going to happen. The way Bree was telling him to take care of Daniel, the look in her eyes, told me that she hadn't let Jonas in on the plan. Is it possible that she didn't trust him for some reason (other than the obvious one, of course)? Did Tachyon warn her?

if bree didnt let him in on the plan, it might have been for simplicity's sake..
the less who know the plan.. the less who can screw it up.
and if he didnt have a huge part in it.. why risk the chance at a mistake on his behalf.? not that she doesnt have faith in him..

divaexigente · Post by **divaexigente** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:40 pm

I think Jonas may have known what was going on, because it would be kinda odd to put him in a situation like that with no warning. I think she may have told him at the last possible minute. Plus to me it look as if Jonas filmed the flash bang going into the elevator door. He tilted the camera down like he saw it and knew it was going to happen.

janesalteredstates · Post by **janesalteredstates** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:54 pm

Something occurred to me. We're all so sure Daniel was brainwashed, but what if that isn't the case?

The Operation has amazing technologies. They easily could have created that video out of clips of Daniel or even just had a gun to his head, or both.

Maybe they tortured him. Who knows.

diastres · Post by **diastres** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:12 pm

tiltingwindward wrote:Maybe she threw herself out?

I don't know. When the shot is inside the elevator, you see the side of Bree's head and then it pans to Lucy's as the flash gets bigger, so I would think she got out. Plus the flashbang got in right before it got small enough to not fit through...

Nieriel.Manwathiel · Post by **Nieriel.Manwathiel** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:19 pm

janesalteredstates wrote:Something occurred to me. We're all so sure Daniel was brainwashed, but what if that isn't the case?

The Operation has amazing technologies. They easily could have created that video out of clips of Daniel or even just had a gun to his head, or both.

Maybe they tortured him. Who knows.

yeah. NO ONE SEEMS TO HAVE FOLLOWED MY SUGGESTION OF A VERBAL ANAGRAM!!

The cuts mid-sentence screamed "puzzle" to me.

tiltingwindward · Post by **tiltingwindward** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:26 pm

I'm skeptical that Jonas knew what was going on...to my knowledge, all the shots of the flashbang rolling in are from the previously placed cameras, not from Jonas. Also, the flashbang looks like it rolls in from the opposite side of the room as Jonas--that is, it rolls in from off to the left of the elevator, and is followed by the filming camera, whereas Jonas is on the other side of the elevator with Daniel. If anyone was filming the flashbang, it was the other cameras, unless Tachyon had time to film as well as explode things.

I think staticmorning is on the right track, although I have to disagree and say that maybe Bree didn't tell Jonas what was going on because she doesn't have faith in him. At least, that's how I read it (although that could just be my lack of faith in Jonas talking).

Logan · Post by **Logan** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:29 pm

Does the Order even know what Tachyon looks like?

For all we know, she just walked right in, sunglasses and all (which, side note: really unnecessary, those sunglasses indoors), and took a flashbang out of her bag.

lookyz · Post by **lookyz** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 10:32 pm

I don't think Jonas knew either. He wouldn't still be questioning it as they were making an escape.

I'm not surprised she didn't let him in on the plan. He would've started thinking/rethinking/analyzing the idea and those behind it. That would've made it really difficult to pull off. Not to mention that we're not sure if he can play it cool - he does wear his heart on his sleeve.

ladron121 · Post by **ladron121** » Sun Feb 11, 2007 11:13 pm

Nieriel.Manwathiel wrote:
janesalteredstates wrote:Something occurred to me. We're all so sure Daniel was brainwashed, but what if that isn't the case?

The Operation has amazing technologies. They easily could have created that video out of clips of Daniel or even just had a gun to his head, or both.

Maybe they tortured him. Who knows.
yeah. NO ONE SEEMS TO HAVE FOLLOWED MY SUGGESTION OF A VERBAL ANAGRAM!!

The cuts mid-sentence screamed "puzzle" to me.

Have you gotten anywhere with it? We'd love to hear about your progress...

janesalteredstates · Post by **janesalteredstates** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:25 am

How can Jonas not have known?

He apparently knows who Tach is and that "Brother" is "Brother".

I think Bree was reminding Jonas of his part in things. Perhaps to untie Daniel as quickly as possible, take of his blindfold... . Maybe just to get ready.

"Are you sure we can trust him? ... he isn't really _____'s brother?" (more of a paraphrase, I don't know the exact line off the top of my head and I'm too lazy right now to look it up.)

If he didn't know how could he have known enough to even ask that question?

Does that make sense? It's early so I might be talking another language.

divaexigente · Post by **divaexigente** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:04 pm

janesalteredstates wrote:How can Jonas not have known?

He apparently knows who Tach is and that "Brother" is "Brother".

I think Bree was reminding Jonas of his part in things. Perhaps to untie Daniel as quickly as possible, take of his blindfold... . Maybe just to get ready.

"Are you sure we can trust him? ... he isn't really _____'s brother?" (more of a paraphrase, I don't know the exact line off the top of my head and I'm too lazy right now to look it up.)

If he didn't know how could he have known enough to even ask that question?

Does that make sense? It's early so I might be talking another language.

I was thinking on those same lines. He knew enough to question Bree, and I don't think she would have had enough time to tell him after the flash bomb hit. I think she waited to the last minute to tell him, so he would let anything slip out during a video. Plus, he was way to calm. Maybe I just have to much faith in Jonas.

tiltingwindward · Post by **tiltingwindward** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:02 am

Hey folks...please remember that this thread is for discussing Daniel's mental state and Jonas' physical state, not outside events. If you want to talk specifics of the video, take a field trip over to the "Human Ransom" thread: Human Ransom

Logan, the Order definitely does NOT know what Tachyon looks like, because they were unable to find out who infiltrated their facility and identify the missing person when Tachyon first broke out. She may have blown her cover here, but it's unclear.

blahblablee · Post by **blahblablee** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:30 am

divaexigente wrote:
janesalteredstates wrote:How can Jonas not have known?

He apparently knows who Tach is and that "Brother" is "Brother".

I think Bree was reminding Jonas of his part in things. Perhaps to untie Daniel as quickly as possible, take of his blindfold... . Maybe just to get ready.

"Are you sure we can trust him? ... he isn't really _____'s brother?" (more of a paraphrase, I don't know the exact line off the top of my head and I'm too lazy right now to look it up.)

If he didn't know how could he have known enough to even ask that question?

Does that make sense? It's early so I might be talking another language.
I was thinking on those same lines. He knew enough to question Bree, and I don't think she would have had enough time to tell him after the flash bomb hit. I think she waited to the last minute to tell him, so he would let anything slip out during a video. Plus, he was way to calm. Maybe I just have to much faith in Jonas.

I think he knew most of the plan before they went in, Bree reminded him of his role and then he was really scared when the flash bang went off because he didn't expect it and he may have thought that it could have harmed Bree or something and thus he questions Brother's and Tachyon's workings because they don't seem safe...If that made any sense...I'm really tired and wouldn't suprise me if I woke up tomorrow read this and simply said...."What?"

rachelalexis · Post by **rachelalexis** » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:08 am

new video says that Daniel doesn't even remember making the video, makes no mention of Jonas being taken.

So, Jonas' physical state we can assume is okay, unless Bree is playing super-uber-coy for some reason and it's included in the things she can't/won't say.

But I think we can assume that the loss of the owner of the house they've been staying at would have been mentioned.

Daniel's state.... well, I guess they want us to infer that he was drugged, hypnotized (causing posthypnotic amnesia) or dissociative amnesia caused by the trauma of being captured [it is 3am, so if I'm missing any other explanations pardon me

.] However, I have a feeling that if it were such a traumatic event that it would cause amnesia (like in assault victims) he would not have been able to be so cool calm and collected during his "performance."
All of that doesn't matter, of course, if we still entertain the idea that even if they checked to make sure it was the "real Danielbeast" that they wouldn't notice a "brainwashing" extensive enough to make D switch sides.